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Transcript:

Caroline: We are recording today on the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territories of the Coast Salish and Kwakwaka’wakw peoples, including Tsleil-Waututh, Squamish, Musqueam, and K’ómoks first nations.

Hello, and welcome to Love to Sew. I’m Caroline, the owner of Blackbird Fabrics.

Helen: And I’m Helen, the designer behind Helen’s Closet Patterns.

Caroline: We’re two sewing buds who love to sew our own clothes and want to encourage you on your sewing journey, too.

Helen: Join us for today’s interview with Kat Brown Akootchook.

Hi, Kat. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Kat: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I’m thrilled to be here.

Helen: Oh, we’re so excited to chat with you. Can you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

Kat: Sure. So my name is Kat Brown Akootchook. I’m a Native American artist and designer. Uh, I’m from the Oneida Nation of the Thames in Canada, and I’m Bear Clan. And I also have roots in a couple other tribes, but my primary one is Oneida. Yeah.

Helen: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And how and when did you learn to sew? And I know this might be a bit of an odd question because you do so many crafts, but we always start with sewing on this show. So, how and when did you learn how to sew?

Kat: Yeah, sewing is probably the, sort of, mother craft that spawned all the other crafts that I’ve become interested in, so it’s, it’s totally relevant. I come from a family of sewists. Uh, my grandma was a quilter and, like, a, sort of, clothing maker. And my mom is, like, a ribbon winning quilt maker. So I’ve just always grown up surrounded by, uh, people with creative projects on the go. So I guess as soon as I could pick up a needle, you know, and be trusted with it.

Helen: Do you remember any of your early projects?

Kat: Oh yeah, for sure. Uh, Barbie clothing and stuffed animal clothing. Capes for everyone. Cat clothing, specifically. We have a very patient family cat hierarchy, I guess, or monarchy. I’ve been able to, uh, dress them all in really ridiculous, but very cute things that we’ve made throughout the years.

Helen: Aw, so cute. I bet people can relate to that. Like, as a child, when you realise you can make things at a sewing machine, you immediately want to just dress your pets up of course.

Kat: Immediately. Yeah, it’s the best. I still do.

Caroline: Awesome. And you do a bunch of, of different crafts, and we are really in love with your boundless creativity. And we’re going to ask you more about all of those things that you do in a bit, but first we wanted to talk to you more generally about your art style and the kinds of themes you work with. So could you describe your art style for our listeners?

Kat: Okay. Yeah. This one is, like, I have to shove a lot into that particular can, I guess. I feel like one of those Pillsbury or, I guess, the canned biscuits that just explodes with too many things.

Helen: Yeah.

Kat: So I guess I tend to boil it down to a blend of contemporary and traditional, uh, Native American motifs and, uh, techniques with a wink and a smile. So I have a bit of a, a sense of humour about everything I make. It doesn’t all have to be taken super duper seriously. So I find that blending traditional materials or traditional ideas with modern techniques and contemporary approaches can really be fun to, sort of, turn expectations of what is Native American art or what is Indigenous design and, sort of, reinvent it or just have a different perspective of it because it is now, and, you know, the traditions came from somewhere and somebody started them sometime. So to, sort of, keep them stale and only in museums is, I think, you know, not the only way to approach things. And so I, I like waking them up again and breathing my visions into them, too.

Helen: That’s so cool to bring your own approach to it. I mean, obviously you’re making art, you want to bring your own vision to the work. And how have people reacted to that in your experience so far?

Kat: It’s just been nothing but wonderful, frankly. I’ve had a lot of just wonderful feedback and supportive encouragement from all these different communities that I’m around or a part of. Uh, it’s, it’s just an incredible, we, we tend to get… Like, this isn’t just me who does that. Of course, there’s a whole movement of, um, Indigenous Renaissance and reclaiming these art practices. And so if you just, sort of, look around Instagram and the beaded earring hashtags, especially you can really find a lot of just incredibly witty and smart and clever approaches to things that might have otherwise just been, sort of, cast off as craft or handicraft which is sometimes looked down upon, I guess, um, as opposed to fine art. There’s, sort of, that forever distinction between the two. And I find there’s a lot more blending of handicraft and fine art nowadays.

Helen: Oh, that’s very interesting. And where do you learn the traditional side of the blend from when you’re doing your work?

Kat: Okay. Yeah. Um, elders are an incredible resource if you have access to them. I have learned, I learned moccasin making from a Mohawk elder back when I was living in Ontario and just picked up so much information in the short time that we made those, those shoes. Um, I’ve had the honour to spend time sewing and working, making regalia for pow wows with elders from Navajo nation and all kinds of places around the world that we end up together, you know, over a sewing table, just sharing stories and techniques and learning things that aren’t easy really to find.

Um, like, you can’t just walk into any store and go pick up regalia or sometimes even the supplies for the regalia. It’s really something that you have to be, sort of, shepherded through by someone who has also been shepherded through. So it’s, yeah, a network of elders and aunties, I guess.

Helen: And you will be a part of that now, too, because you’re going to share as well.

Kat: Yeah. That’s one of my biggest goals is to be that auntie who helps and breaks down the gatekeeping that can sometimes exist to help people access these traditions that have often been, you know, forcibly taken from us. So reclaiming that and sharing it is a total joy.

Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I’d love to learn a little bit more about your design process and how you come up with ideas and how you develop them. Could you share a little bit more about that?

Kat: Oh, okay. My iPhone is full of… Like, the Notes app is just full of really, really random sporadic sentences that don’t make a ton of sense when I’m fully awake, but it’s like shower thoughts, I guess. Well, I’ll come up with an idea that all then put into the sort of scrap-, scrapbook journal where I sketch it out, and yeah, it comes, sort of, further down the line. So I’ve got all these, sort of, amorphous ideas swirling in my head that generally slowly filter through the iPhone and then to the notebook and then to drafting and eventually into real life.

Caroline: Awesome. And you’ve said before that you dream about some of your designs…

Kat: Yeah.

Caroline: …before you make them. And I want to know more about this. Like, what are these dreams like?

Kat: Ah, sometimes, like, it’s, it is that, sort of, just your sleep-, your classic, even, writer who keeps a notepad by their bed about books. So it doesn’t have to be anything particularly spiritual, but sometimes it is. So it’s just being open to, like, not to sound too hippy dippy, but to what the universe is telling you, you know? And so sometimes things will come to you, and it’ll just feel so right that it just, it has to happen. It has to be made. And so sometimes, through a dream, or even just a, like a vision, because you don’t even necessarily have to be asleep. Yeah. It’s maybe just a different take on the classic imagination. It’s just framing it in a Native knowledge way, I suppose, is the best way to explain dreams.

Helen: Yeah. It makes me think of when people say, like, a creative spark or something like that, like, yeah, a driving force. And I’m curious if you always envision the project that you think of, or the concept in a certain medium cause you do so many different things. Like, you must have ideas and then explore, you know, am I going to express that in beadwork or in some other way? Like, how do you decide which avenue to go down?

Kat: Oh, that’s true. I guess I do typically within the medium. I often, I feel like maybe this is a side effect of having ADHD, and I jump from these projects to projects, and I often use them as a vehicle to learn a new skill. And so the motivation comes not just for the finishing project, but also the, to pursue the learning process itself.

And so I get so much joy and enthusiasm out of actually learning how to do a new thing that, that I, I pursue it in a way that, um, is both for the goal of finishing and completing a project, but also to, sort of, understand the process and understand what the steps of the process are and how they came to be and how that relates to the people who came before me and who taught other people those things because a lot of symbol-, like, symbolism and techniques, like, they’re honed to perfection, like, with really just wonderful, wonderful techniques that you know, are genius in a lot of ways that having tried to self-teach myself certain things, I’ve made a lot of mistakes along the way.

Like, when I first got into beadwork, I, I really wanted to make a classic medallion, a, sort of, big classic beaded medallion, and I didn’t know anything about them. And so I just saw pictures of them and I thought, oh, I’d love to make that. And so when I went out to go and make my first beaded medallion, I did it in the most complicated, ridiculous way possible because I didn’t have a teacher. I was just bumbling my way through to make the final project. And I basically took, you know, the longest way there. And it was incredibly fun, but also, like, really meticulous, and it didn’t have to be that difficult.

And so now that I’ve humbled myself a bit more to, sort of, learn from teachers and seek out resources, I find that my learning is so much richer than just trying to, sort of, wack through the weeds on my own so much. I still do, but uh…

Helen: Both valid approaches to creativity.

Kat: Yeah, yeah, but it’s definitely worthwhile seeking out experts if you can.

Helen: Well, we’d love to talk about an amazing project that you did last year. It was a coat upcycle where you did some really beautiful appliqué. Um, and we’d like to start off by just having you describe what it looks like for our listeners since this is a podcast.

Kat: Okay. Yeah. So I call it my Strawberry Coat. It’s a wool coat, a secondhand coat from, like, the 1970s. I think it’s, sort of, a navy blue, and it’s a hundred percent virgin wool, and it’s in pristine condition. And I bought that for, I think, $12. And so on the outside of the coat, I’ve decorated it with appliqué strawberries and brown bears, or a little bit white, but that was because that was the other colour of wool I had available.

Um, I think people think they might be polar bears, but they’re really supposed to be a nod to the fact that I’m Bear Clan. Um, so they’re just, you know, maybe they’re brown bears in the snow. And then I have a network of strawberries that are, um, sort of, all on a bit of a vine, I guess, or strawberry stem, uh, that are, sort of, winding their way around. And I’ve also sewn, using the same colour of, of the strawberries, a red hood. Um, and I’ve used, uh, two fox or, I guess, one fox tail, uh, as the, the, fur ruff around the top, and it also has red cuffs.

Helen: Oh.

Caroline: It’s so cool.

Helen: It’s so beautiful.

Caroline: Yeah. It’s, it’s very striking with the red accents and the strawberries pop out so much. It’s, like, such a beautiful addition to the coat. And you mentioned symbolism earlier, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the strawberries. We also noticed a lot of feathers in your work. What do these symbols mean to you?

Kat: Okay, yeah, strawberries. So strawberries, um, my grandmother’s name in Oneida was Yehuhyáktaˀ. It means “she knows where the good berries grow,” and strawberries, in our culture, are, like, really, like, tied to women’s medicine and women’s strength in a lot of ways. And so there’s also the Strawberry Moon, so, which is, sort of, part of our, our lunar calendar, um, so Strawberry Picking Moon. And so it’s just, like, it’s a, it’s a motif that really shows up in a lot of ways, almost everywhere, Turtle Island, North America, has some, kind of, celebration of strawberries, um, in their culture.

So I, I tend to use them a lot because of that tie to my grandmother’s name, especially. And, uh, it’s just, it makes everyone happy. There’s, like, just so many positive associations of strength and, like, like, the good qualities in, in women and femme people and two spirit people that, uh, yeah, strawberries are just, like, universally beloved and delicious, so, yeah, definitely.

Helen: So true. Such a beautiful, bright colour, too. We noticed you made a headband, as well, with beaded strawberries, and there’s a picture of your grandmother wearing it.

Kat: Yes! Yes!

Helen: So cute.

Kat: Yeah. That’s, and that’s, uh, specific to us, as well. Um, that’s, Haudenosaunee or Iroquois raised beadwork. And so, um, that’s one of the more common types of beadwork in my culture where that’s specific to just uh, Iroquois people. You don’t really see it anywhere else. And the fact that strawberries are used so often in that it’s often the only colour in the beadwork. So all the rest of the beadwork will just be white, but then strawberries are used as that pop of red.

Helen: Wow. Very cool. And how do you raise the beads up? Do you put something underneath them?

Kat: The first time I tried to figure it out on my own, I did.

Helen: Just shove something in there.

Kat: Yeah, I used a whole bunch of bead that I didn’t really like. They’d lost a bit of their colour. And so I thought, oh, I’ll stick them in there, but it made it very heavy. And then when I took a class from a Mohawk girl who taught me how to do proper raised beadwork, um, it’s, kind of, like making a bridge with the beads. So you take about seven or eight beads and then, um, instead of laying them down flat in the width of a seven or eight beads, you make the stitch length about maybe four or five beads long, and then it, sort of, creates this arch. And then by combining a whole bunch of different arches, the beadwork ends up raised and you can finesse it in a way that, sort of, they dovetail together to make really beautiful shapes and patterns.

Helen: Wow. I mean, beading just seems like this magic. Like, you can do so many different things with it. You can make it structural, like, you can actually have different shapes and, like, you’re talking about raising it up like that. That’s, it’s so incredible. And I really want to try it…

Kat: Oh, you should!

Helen: …after looking at your work. You’ve inspired me.

Kat: It’s like meditation, too. It soothes you. Because it’s so small and fine motor, I find it’s really meditative.

Helen: Yeah, you’ve talked a bit about beading as medicine. What does that mean for you?

Kat: Yeah. So when indigenous people say medicine, we’re not talking about prescriptions, though I’d love a beading prescription, that would be nice. But, um, it’s, sort of, like, a, like, a way of healing spiritually and, sort of, maybe more metaphysically. So you have beading as an outlet for stress or worries or a way to, sort of, sit and centre your thoughts. Um, when I’m on a, like when I’m beading, I can’t use my phone to scroll endlessly reading doom, gloom, and boom, I guess. It’s just really, um, this time that you just, you have to have focus, otherwise you’ll get stuck. So yeah, you don’t want to, like, spike yourself with a needle, so you really do need that focus. And you’re creating something beautiful, so, yeah, it’s just everything that comes together, and the community that springs up around it, it’s just healing in a lot of ways.

Caroline: Oh, yeah. That’s wonderful. Yeah, I was going to say there’s something to be said for those crafts that really pull you in like that and where you have to put your full focus on them, and it allows you to, kind of, block everything else out, and I could totally see how that could be medicine for you. It’s, it’s amazing.

And your work is so, so beautiful. I want to encourage our listeners to go check out some of your beadwork. We loved scrolling through your Instagram and seeing some of the beautiful jewellery that you make, but also, um, beadwork on garments and, and in other forms as well. Can you talk to us a little bit about your favourite beading styles? Do you have any, any specific ones other than what you’ve already mentioned?

Kat: Ah! There’s so many, um, yeah, like, flat stitch is just incredible. I think it’s what most people think of when they think of beading, it’s, sort of, appliquéing beads onto some, sort of, interfacing in a way that you can, sort of, have a picture or a design, but there’s this one called lazy stitch which I’ve never actually done. Um, it’s really common with, uh, Plains and, uh, Plateau People. And you’ll see it on a lot of regalia that is, like, fully beaded, like, they’re wearing, you know, 50 pound garments and, um, it, kind of, looks like lanes that are slightly bubbled, and they have these more geometric designs. And I just, uh, it’s just such… It’s called lazy stitch. And that’s the worst word for it at all cause I’m sure it just takes ages, but I would love to learn about that one. It’s just so beautiful. And so just overwhelming in quantity when you think about how many beads are on a garment and how much time it had to take and just, it’s just, it takes your breath away when you see a lane stitched beadwork piece.

Helen: Wow. Yeah. I bet we’ll have to find one for the show notes. Maybe you can help us out and point us in the right direction. Have you worked on a large scale piece like that, where it would take forever to finish?

Kat: Ah, yeah, I have, um, my own regalia, so I’m a Jingle Dress Dancer. And so my regalia is a work in progress because to finish it all before you use it is just, would take years. So as I finish pieces, um, I just wear them, but I have a lot still to go on my own regalia. So, uh, the pieces that I’ve finished are my, uh, my moccasins and my hair ties and, sort of, hair clips, but I have a, kind of, headband crown thing, and they’re called leggings, but they’re, they don’t go all the way up your leg. It’s more of just like a calf, like the top part of a boot, I guess, from the ankle to the shin. And those are going to be fully beaded, and, like, they’ve just taken me years.

Helen: Wow. And when we say beading, are you working with, like, seed beads, the little teeny tiny ones or…?

Kat: Yeah, yeah.

Helen: Yeah.

Kat: I really, yeah, like seed beads a lot, and the smaller, the better because you can get more details. So seed beads have numbers on them, so a lot of people work with, um, different sizes of beads because you can cover more area and do less, I guess, stitches, if you want to use a bigger bead, but the ones that I’m using are size 15, 13, and 11.

And so the number of a bead actually corresponds to how many beads fit on an inch. So 15 beads to an inch is a size 15 bead, or 11 beads to an inch is a size 11 bead. So those are the sizes that I really like working with.

Helen: Okay. So the higher the number, the smaller the bead?

Kat: Yes, yes.

Helen: What’s the smallest number?

Kat: Oh, the antique ones, like, pre-colonial, some of them, or maybe early colonial. They could go up to, like, size 24.

Helen: Wow.

Kat: You can’t even find needles that go into them. So I don’t know how to use them.

Helen: Impossible.

Kat: If you want to find somebody who uses those. Um, Jamie Okuma is a, sort of, bead celebrity, A-lister who works with those and does the most incredible pieces with a lot of humour. Her pieces are incredible. And she does a lot of, uh, sort of, like, realistic beadwork illustrations of, like, classic horror movies with beadwork.

Helen: Wow! Cool.

Kat: So just, like, really intense hard to describe pieces of, like, the clown from some famous horror movie or whatnot. And it’s just detailed and, like, beads from the 17th century.

Helen: Wow.

Kat: So, it’s really, she’s wonderful. Yeah.

Caroline: Well, we’ll make sure we link her, link her up in the show notes.

Kat: Jamie Okuma.

Caroline: Awesome. Thank you. And you mentioned a needle, so I have to ask, like, what other tools and materials do you need to start beading if any of our listeners are thinking about getting into it?

Kat: Beading is such easy access. Like, you can get basic beadwork supplies at most dollar stores, um, because, like, it’s such a low barrier of access. Like, you need something to bead on typically felt or stiffened felt or a pellon if you want to get fancy and some kind of seed bead. There’s different qualities of seed beads, but, you know, like, beads are beads. So, like, you can really make all kinds of incredible things even…

I like mixing high, low too. Like, I work with materials from the dollar store. I work with materials from the fish store a lot. And so I don’t, I’m not a bead snob in any way. I’m not a snob about it at all because you can transform the materials from what they are into something beautiful. Like, how, how incredible is that? So I don’t turn my nose up at things.

Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I can’t help, but wonder what your bead collection is like since you’re working on all of these intricate pieces?

Kat: It’s embarrassing!

Caroline: Yeah, [lease share more. Like, what is it, a big box? How do you organise the beads? They’re so tiny.

Kat: I have several, um, shelving racks from Home Depot that have, um, those Sterlite bins full of different, sort of, they’re sorted by size, by type of bead, um, some of them are sorted by shell colour if they’re, like, natural beads, just, yeah, I have way, I have more beads than I could ever work with, and yet, I still go to the bead store fairly regularly. So yeah, I just have a huge collection. My biggest piece of advice is to buy one kind of container for, the small kind of containers and just stick with it because throughout the years, when you graduate to different types of bead vials or bead containers or sorting devices, it’s just too ridiculous. And so having something consistent is the one piece of advice I’d go with. It doesn’t matter what you choose, just as long as it’s the same for everybody.

Caroline: And hope it doesn’t get discontinued or whatever.

Kat: Oh, they get discontinued all the time! That’s the problem.

Helen: Well, I can definitely relate to buying more materials than you need as a sewist. Um, and I also love you mention the bead store because it was one of my favourite places to go as a kid, even though I wasn’t, I did a little bit of beading, just, you know, crafty kind of stuff when I was younger, but the bead store was always just like this destination for me and my parents because they knew I loved it so much. And, and all the shiny colours and all the little boxes full of beads.

Kat: It’s true!

Helen: And you can touch them.

Kat: And the muffin tins!

Helen: Yeah!

Kat: And I know those beads are 10 times what they’re probably worth, but I’m always drawn to those muffin tin beads that they price per bead.

Helen: Right? I was fascinated by that as a kid or, like, my parents would be like, you can have, like, a little dime bag full of beads. Seed beads.

Kat: The bead soup!

Helen: Yeah, exactly. And like, but not those ones. Those are 50 cents each. You can’t have those ones.

Kat: And you think, oh, what’s 50 cents. But if you need a whole necklace’s worth, it adds up.

Helen: Yeah, it really does.

Kat: I’m glad to hear that you started as a child though because, like, that’s just… one of my background things is I’m a teacher, and I’ve got a master’s of education where I focused on indigenous artwork for children as a learning tool. And beadwork, for almost any age, is just, like, it’s just so educational on so many levels, maths, spatial awareness, design, and even coding. Like, you have to plan so much that, like, to hear about children beading and getting into beadwork. Like, it’s one of the best things you can do with your kids. And you can turn so many lessons into a beadwork lesson that I’m just thrilled to hear other people have exposure to beadwork as kids.

Helen: Oh, it’s so true. It really does take a lot of concentration and planning and even dexterity. Like, it is hard to get those beads onto that needle. Let me tell you.

Kat: Yeah, and, like, making those little beaded geckos from the nineties. Like, I’m glad they’re still around. That was my start, too.

Helen: Oh, really? Yeah. I do think it was, like, en vogue in the nineties, for sure. And those daisy chain bracelets and things like that.

Kat: Yeah. Yeah, those are everywhere now.

Helen: Yeah, it’s true. Yeah. I wish I kept mine. I could be even more in, in style. So do you have a favourite beadwork piece that you’ve made or maybe a few so we can share some with our listeners?

Kat: Oh, I, one of my favourite pieces I made but I guess I can’t, I can’t really say I designed it because it was part of this “bead this in your style” challenge. And so it would be my strawberry necklace and earring set that I beaded on birchbark with, uh, 24 karat gold beads as well as really small size 15 Charlotte Cut beads. But I also, I beaded them onto birchbark that I harvested myself and created a necklace and earring set.

But the cool thing about that set is the design was put out for any beader anywhere, like, no specifications at all. Like, you can just work on this one design, and then at the end of the month, this Instagram account called @BeadThisInYourStyle will share it to everyone and show them all off. And so you can see all the different takes of this one design and how different people approach it.

And you’re not allowed to sell them or make money off of them. And so I really enjoyed that factor to, sort of, bead without, you know, an eye on your budget or having to think about, oh, I’m going to have to part with this because you can’t, you know, you can’t sell it. You can give it away if you want, but I really, really enjoyed that one. And so there’s just so much love and community in that piece that I really enjoyed that one.

Helen: Yeah.

Kat: And it’s fun to wear.

Helen: I bet. It’s gorgeous. We’ll definitely link it in the show notes. And, I mean, you mentioned keeping in mind, like, price points and things like that. Is that something that you often think about when you’re working with projects and do you sell your work?

Kat: Yeah, uh, it’s, it’s tricky. I had an Etsy for quite a long time, but, um, I shut it down when Etsy started, sort of, misbehaving, putting money on hold and such. So I’m actually working on my own website right now. It should be up by the time this podcast comes out.

Helen: Oh, cool.

Kat: So, yeah. Uh, I do sell. Like, that’s my main job is selling beadwork, I suppose, and, and art. So it’s hard to price your pieces because you put a lot of time and love into them and it’s, it’s, it’s a hard one. Like, there’s all sorts of advice online about how to go about that, but, uh, it’s still a bit of a minefield. Yeah.

Helen: Yeah. It’s so hard to price these crafts where we spend hours doing something. And it’s just not the price that people typically expect to pay for XYZ, like a top or a necklace or things like that so…

Kat: Yeah, especially…

Helen: … it’s really hard…

Kat: …when they see things, like, in fast fashion. And think, oh, I can get that for seven bucks, but yeah, well, you know, they’re probably not using very good beads, and it’s probably made with, like, unethical labour practices, so…

Helen: Yeah, and it’s not about having the right, the perfect styled necklace either. It’s about buying a piece of art, like, it’s a totally different thing.

Kat: Exactly! It comes back to my point on, sort of, the marriage of handicraft and art, and I think that, you know, Native-made jewelry is definitely much more in the art side of that column, I think, um, just based on the history that’s attached to it. Like, the reason that I can even bead now is because, um, people, kind of, kept beading underground when it was banned.

Like, it was banned in Canada under the Indian Act. Uh, and so like we weren’t allowed to bead or practice our traditional, like, craft ways and making ways, I suppose. And so the only reason why beadwork even exists is because we were allowed to make trinkets, I suppose, and, uh, tourist souvenirs around Niagara Falls.

Um, and so that’s how a lot of our techniques were kept alive is through selling Niagara Falls memorabilia. And so, like, that was all we were allowed to do. And so they, they managed, but you know, like, like, this isn’t, beading is a, sort of, evidence that we survived. And so, like, there’s a lot more to it than just, you know, ooh, shiny. Like, shiny is wonderful, but like, there’s also a lot of heart there, too.

Helen: Yeah, and we wanted to ask you how our listeners can support indigenous bead artists and also, in your opinion, like, is it okay for non-indigenous people to wear the beadwork?

Kat: Oh, yeah. This is like one of the most frequently asked questions I get, and I understand, like, a lot of anxiety around it. It’s totally okay to wear Native-made beadwork. We would love you to. Like, that’s the best way to support Native artists. It’s actually really hard to buy Native-made beadwork. You, kind of, have to, like, learn about how, you know, sharpened elbows and, like, cutthroat the beadwork buying experience can be. A lot of people have to set up timers to wake up, and, like, when I put up a beadwork drop off and sell out in about three minutes.

Caroline: Wow.

Helen: Wow.

Kat: And so you have to really be prepared and, like, have your credit card information already ready to go or signed into PayPal. And, like, everybody has a story of, like, that one that got away. And so it’s wonderful that there’s, that demand, demand there, and we’re really grateful for it, but, um, it’s not necessarily an easy thing to buy that you tend to have to really plan ahead. So, yeah, follow your favourite artists and see what they do and maybe ask them for tips. And so we usually announce, like, a week or so in advance when we do a drop or whatnot, or who, who we’re partnering with, if, if that happens.

Helen: I feel like this is just evidence that you should be charging more for the beadwork, no?

Kat: Yeah, in a lot of ways, sometimes it is. Yeah, for sure.

Caroline: Well, and it’s encouraging, too, that all of that time and love and history has gone into these pieces and then, they actually are selling quickly. Like, that’s, that’s really, really great that you have that support. How often do you do drops? I’m curious, like, how, how often do you personally, uh, drop your, your bead pieces?

Kat: I’m wildly inconsistent, so I’m not the greatest, but a lot of people have fairly regular ones. Um, so some people do it, like, weekly if they’re, like, really high volume, but for me, I, typically probably once or twice a month. Oh, and I just wanted to go back to, like, can non-Native people wear Native beadwork. The only caveat is, like, just don’t dress up as us.

So as long as it’s not veering into anything, costumey, like, that’s, it’s totally fine to wear it. But, like, that’s the one caveat is, like, yeah, wear it all you want. But, like, don’t wear anything sacred which is usually regalia and, like, no Native person is going to sell that to you anyway. And don’t wear anything costumey.

Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. I wanted to ask one more question about beadwork before we, before we move on. Yeah, I mean, you were talking about the time that you put into some of, some of the pieces that you work on with beadwork. Um, and I wonder, it seems like it must take a lot of patience. And I wonder how you embrace that slow nature of, of some of these crafts that you do.

Kat: I listen to a ton of podcasts, so that’s why I’m thrilled to have found yours now. I’ve been just, like, bingeing it for the past week, trying to understand what, um, I was coming up into for this, but it’s just been, uh, yeah, I’ve become just such a podcast blackhole. Um, yeah, I love it. It’s it’s, it’s been great, especially through quarantine.

So, like I mentioned before, I’m a trained teacher, and at the very beginning of COVID, I was putting out applications again to go back into the classroom. And so I, I had an interview for a school around March 11th, and I, sort of, did the old, you know, U-turn and retreated back into my beading studio and decided to make a more permanent go of this instead because I saw the writing on the wall that the classroom wasn’t exactly going to be where I wanted to be for at least the next few years. Frankly, COVID was a bit of a, you know, silver lining to me to really force me to, sort of, spend this time and be devoted to those projects.

And, um, that’s when I made my regalia, was at home during COVID. So, like, having a lot of this, sort of, dedicated time has kept me safe and indoors, and it’s given me an avenue to, sort of, make money that doesn’t expose me to the public. So, um, it’s been an amazing work from home opportunity, and things have just blossomed after I put all my energy into sort of being Sweetgrass and Sage for a few years. Um, so yeah, like, it’s just been a really, uh, encouraging time, uh, which is remarkable considering the circumstances. Yeah.

Helen: Yeah. That’s true. I’m glad to hear that. I’m sure some folks out there can relate to that, and I’m excited to see your new website. You mentioned there, where you’re going to take things next. And, um, since you mentioned podcasts, I’d love to know if you have any suggestions for us cause we love podcasts, as well, of course, we know our listeners do.

Kat: Ooh, I haven’t really found any, um, podcasts similar to yours. Yours is the first time I’ve even known about, like, sort of, crafty oriented.

Helen: Oh, wow, really? Oh, you’re in for a treat. There’s so many good ones.

Kat: Oh, cool. Um, I’m excited to sort of go down a different line. I really enjoy, sort of, the investigative ones, um, like Sweet Bobby was a really, sort of, quick one that came out a month ago, maybe.

Helen: Oh, cool.

Kat: Um, I really enjoy interesting, learning about different religions and cults. So there’s one called Oh No Ross and Carrie, where they investigate, sort of, fringe groups and, um, that’s fun. And, like, there’s tons and tons of Native podcasts. Um, a really great one is called Coffee and Quaq, and it’s an Inuits podcast where, um, they just discuss, like, sort of, current events and all kinds of things. Um, and just, it’s just really neat to hear Inuit perspective, my partner is Inuit. So, um, I always like learning more about his culture, so yeah.

Helen: Oh, that’s great. I’m going to check out all of those. Thank you. Okay. We want to talk a little bit about some of the other things you do, as interesting as beading is, um, so you block print as well. And one of your Land Back block printed shirts even made it onto television. It was worn by a character in Rutherford Falls which is so cool.

Kat: Yeah, that was just amazing. And the fact that it was on their pilot episode in, like, basically the first scene, like, was just floored. Yeah. So exciting.

Helen: Yeah. How did it feel to, to see that on TV? Like, did you know it was going to happen?

Kat: Yeah, so I’m friends with the star of that show ‎Jana Schmieding who is also a beader. Um, she beads under the name CityNDN, so City N-D-N, and her beadwork is incredible. She does a lot of pop culture work, but, um, yeah, so we were friends for a long time just through beading and then, um, when they were, uh, doing all the set design and costuming for the show, Jana knew about my work and thought it would be perfect for this, sort of, spunky little 12 year old boy to, sort of, challenge a fussy old museum curator, wearing a shirt that said “Land Back.” And so it, it really stood for itself, and they never said the words “Land Back” in the entire show.

But, uh, yeah, season two, they ordered a whole bunch more shirts, so I’m excited to see what happens there. I don’t know what, what they’re involved in, but yeah, there’ll be a bunch of my beadwork as well as, uh, my shirts and things on that show. Yeah, and other shows have, too. Like, Resident Alien is a show on SyFy that they, they got a whole bunch of my stuff for, so it’s just opened a lot of doors for me, um, uh, to, to work in a different capacity instead of just selling pieces. It’s, sort of, like, putting them out there into the world in a different way.

Helen: Yeah. Is it reaching such a wide audience, too, that way. It’s so exciting.

Kat: Yeah, it’s just been wonderful and mind blowing and, like, encouraging in so many ways because that Land Back piece, um, I carved it as a, sort of, I wanted, I was going to go to a bunch of, sort of, um, activist movements.

Um, I was living in Hawaiʻi at the time and there was the Mauna Kea mountain, um, on the Big Island of Hawaiʻi where the native Hawaiʻian community was protesting and protecting the mountain of Mauna Kea, um, from development of a huge telescope that they haven’t been consulted on to put it in there. And so there’s this huge organisation of native Hawaiʻian activists who were camping out on the top of this mountain for years.

And so I went to support them, and they had an art tent where they were screen printing really cool things onto people’s clothing, and I really liked that idea. And so I thought, how can I support them? And then I went back home, carved the Land Back print which is, sort of, the Native American approach to land rights and indigenous sovereignty, and it was a growing movement at the time.

I thought I don’t, I don’t think any native Hawaiʻian people were super involved, but now they’re, they’re all in, you know, in, for Land Back and Water is Life. And, um, the movements have really, um, strengthened each other. And so that block print was a way for me to take a design and print it on clothing on top of a mountain without very many resources, no running water or things like that to, sort of, bring people into a movement in a way that is extremely low cost.

Um, it gets them involved with the art itself. So, like, they’re the ones rolling out the paint and teaching them how to block, teaching them how to, sort of, you know, be really careful cause if you do block printing, like, you, you don’t get second chances. Like, you put that thing down, that’s where it is. So, yeah, it’s just a really wonderful educational tool. And so it, sort of, was a way for me to combine my two loves of art and education and getting the community involved. And so, yeah, that’s that, that design has really, um, blown up and just taken on a life of its own.

I think there’s just something about the boldness of block printing and, like, the significance of two hands holding feathers in a way that is definitely, indicates setting a boundary. But the fact that they’re holding a feathers is, sort of, like, non-violence, I suppose, in the same way. And so it’s, it’s really, I think it’s a very layered piece, and to see it getting such life, you know, everywhere it goes, is just Incredibly encouraging. Yeah.

Helen: Oh, that’s such a great story. And I totally agree. There’s so much life in this print, and I think block printing in general just has a lot of energy in it because the lines aren’t perfectly straight, and you get those little blobs of ink around the edges, and everything, sort of, looks like it’s almost vibrating.

Kat: Yeah!

Helen: And I just love that about block printing. It’s so cool.

Kat: Yeah. It’s just, it’s incredibly analog. And most of my work is in analog physical space. And so that’s what I really like about it, too. You put the paint into people’s hands, and you, like, it’s very physical, and you’re very connected to it, and you have to put your whole body weight on it to make it work. And so, and sometimes it doesn’t work out. So, like, there’s all of these emotions involved in it. And, like, I think everybody gets a bit of a thrill, like, no matter what capacity they’re in, if they’re involved in the process at all.

Helen: Yeah. That’s true. What kind of materials do you make your blocks with, do you use the soft or the hard blocks?

Kat: Um, I have tried a bit of everything, but I have settled on really enjoying the soft ones because they’re easier to clean, um, some of the harder lino, like, it curls up. And so it’s not very useful out in a field. Um, I went to the Indigenous Tattoo Gathering in Tyendinaga this summer, and I brought my blocks, and it was too hot, and they all curled up. And so it was very difficult to print with a community, do a community print day on such a hot occasion, but we still made it work.

But, uh, yeah, I think the soft ones are the way to go, especially for kids. Like, if they’re going to be interacting with it, they’re a little bit more sturdy which doesn’t make, it’s counter-intuitive because the soft ones, they’re more flexible, whereas the harder ones they’ll crack. So, yeah, I like Speedy Carve Rubber. Yeah, that’s the best one to me.

Helen: It is really nice and easy. I mean, you can still slip and cut yourself. That doesn’t stop, but yeah, much easier to carve on. You mentioned earlier in the interview about your Jingle Dress Dancing, and you actually made a Silent Jingle Dress. Can you talk to us a little bit about what this piece looks like and what its meaning is?

Kat: Yeah, okay, so, um, I ma- Jingle Dress Dancing is an Ojibwe, which is one of my tribes, um, origin, uh, dance. That’s a medicine dance that is for literal healing of, like, sick people so that it was, it was designed or it was, sort of, born as a healing dance for, um, for people who are sick. And so, or, like, communities that are sick. So it’s often used during a lot of healing ceremonies. Um, and so Jingle Dancing, it’s, um, the, sort of, metal cones that are sewn onto the dress via bias tape.

And they have, uh, about a two inch tab maybe, um, maybe shorter that lets them, sort of, clink around, um, against each other. And they make an incredible noise when there’s multiple people dancing at the same time, sort of, jumping up and down in rhythms. And so they sound like just hundreds and hundreds of maybe tambourines, I suppose.

And so, um, there’s the movement for MMIW which is Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, um, which is also sometimes called MMIP so Missing and Murdered Indigenous People or MMIR Relations, Relatives. There’s lots of different approaches, but it’s, it’s the Missing and Murdered Indigenous People who are, um, targeted and, you know, lost to us in a lot of ways.

And so, um, a couple of years ago I used block printing to, sort of, create an image of a jingle cone, a single jingle cone, that I carved, sort of, my tribal designs into as well as the acronym M-M-I-W. And so I put it onto a similar, I block printed these stripes and rows of jingle cones in the same pattern as my personal regalia, but because they’re blocked printed on, the dress doesn’t make any noise at all.

And so it was, sort of, a symbolic piece to honour those of us who, you know, can’t dance anymore and are, are sort of being forgotten and left behind and not investigated or being brought to justice, um, which is a huge problem in Canada and the U.S., as well, and, you know, various places in the world. Like, indigenous people are, are not being treated properly. And so this, this is definitely, um, one of my more solemn pieces that has not a lot of wink. No, no winking. It’s, it’s pretty straight to the point. And so, yeah. So it’s, it’s red and with white, uh, the white jingle cones and stripes. Yeah.

Caroline: Yeah. It is such a beautiful and meaningful piece. And I wonder, um, we have a lot of listeners in Canada and the U.S. and all over the world, but mainly North America, and I wonder what can our listeners do to help the cause of MMIW or MMIP?

Kat: Oh, yes. Um, there’s a lot really, um, I find that like the larger, uh, organisations are, like, they’re good and wonderful and doing a great job to raise awareness, but after a certain point awareness, like, kind of, isn’t enough. And so I would encourage people to actually look more closely at the specific people who are missing from their community and, like, there’s going to be somebody nearby.

Unfortunately, this problem is so pervasive that there are likely families nearby to you almost anywhere in the U.S. and Canada that have smaller, less publicised, um, maybe not Go Fund Me’s, but some kind of campaign or they’re, maybe they need help, um, petitioning to the local governments or writing to their council members.

And I think that that smaller, more local, more personal impact can go a lot further, especially for people who want to, sort of, like, have that really meaningful and, like, specific approach. I find, like, that’s probably the best way to get involved at this point.

Helen: Mm, that’s really good advice. Thank you for that.

Kat: Yeah.

Helen: You also mentioned earlier in the show about wearing regalia and that you’ve been working on your own regalia, and we would love to know when and where do you wear this regalia?

Kat: Um, for me it’s mostly ceremonies and powwows, so I grew up away from my community. And so I didn’t grow up going to powwows as a child. So my family, like, like, my dad is white, and my mom is Native. And so, um, we don’t have the closest connection to it. A lot of our traditions were taken from us and, like, my family was moved off the Reserve, even in my grandparents, uh, eras, I guess. And so to really pick up that torch and reconnect and, like, really reclaim those, um, pieces, I sewed my first piece of regalia when I was in my thirties.

And so, I, I debuted at my first powwow along with the tiny tots. And so I considered myself a jumbo tot, and they have a whole process for, uh, your debut dance, your first dance to go into the powwow circle. And it’s a beautiful thing. And you go and meet all the drummers, and you, sort of, shake everyone’s hand or, you know, offer them a gift of either tobacco or sage or whatever you have.

Um, and it’s a wonderful experience. And I was really, um, shepherded into the circle by these incredible aunties. So it was just a wonderful time, um, learning how to make my regalia, practising dancing in the park on Sunday nights, like, with all these little kids. It was wonderful. I loved it. And so to have those people willing to help people like me, who weren’t raised directly in the powwow circle. Like, not everybody has that access. And so I think it’s a really wonderful thing to have these people who are willing to, sort of, take you under their wing.

Caroline: And what was that like? Like, I, I’m curious, that sounds so meaningful to be able to wear regalia for the first time in your thirties. Like, what did that mean to you? What was that like?

Kat: Um, it meant everything. Like, you just feel so fulfilled and, like, I’m also, like, despite the fact that I love beadwork, I’m not very, um, dextrous with being able to do my hair. So I was able to go and, like, ask a friend of mine to braid my hair before the powwows and things. And, like, just, like, having so many people taking care of you and, like, reciprocally, like, you’re also helping taking care of them in different ways that you can as well.

It’s just this really wonderful experience. Um, my first powwow was when I was living in Hawaiʻi, and so it was a really hot and sweaty experience, uh, wearing a huge dress, um, that’s heavy. Like, the dresses are supposed to have 365 cones on them which is quite heavy, um, especially dancing up and down in, like, the humidity.

Mine only has, I think, 200. I haven’t added them all. So even with a 200 cone dress, like, that thing is hot, and you’re wearing wool legging things and moccasins. And my aunties lent me eagle feathers for my hair. So, like, there’s just a lot involved. So it was just, like, really wonderful, but also very overwhelming.

Helen: I can imagine. And I love the whole vision. And also what you said earlier about this, uh, regalia being a work in progress. Like, you haven’t finished it yet, but you still wear it, and you’re going to continue working on it, and you’ll probably work on it for your rest of your life, I imagine. Like, it’s just going to be ongoing.

It’s true. And you, you, sort of, like, a lot of people have multiple sets of different things, too, and so you don’t end up just with one piece. Um, and so there’s also a really wonderful tradition of gifting your regalia to up and coming, like, I guess, children, tiny tots, or teenagers. Like, there was, um, several, uh, Native kids who come to powwows.

Like, like regalia is a really high cost. A lot of it is very expensive. And so lots of kids who are from, like, lower socioeconomic status is, like, they don’t have access to it. And so to be able to gift a piece, like even a shawl or something, to a kid to be able to participate in a powwow is just, like, a wonderful thing.

So one of my dreams is to have, sort of, a way to teach or give a little classes or something in order to open up the access for Native kids to actually, you know, feel that, kind of, fulfilment by feeling more part and connected to their, to their culture. Yeah.

Caroline: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. Okay. Well, we, we wanted to talk about one of the more recent crafts that we’ve seen you doing which is hide tanning, as well. So can we switch gears to that for a minute?

Kat: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a whole different animal.

Caroline: It sure is. Yeah. Let’s, let’s talk about it. What got you interested in hide tanning?

Kat: Ah, well I just, a lot of my beadwork heroes like Amber Sandy and JShine Designs, like, they w-, they’ve been doing high tanning for a while, and they make these incredible pieces. And so when you see the people that you admire a part of it, like, it’s really hard not to want to be a part of it, too.

And also just, like, the experience of seeing the difference between commercially tan hides and hides that have been brain tanned in a traditional way, it’s night and day. Like, a commercially tan hide, like, that I have worked with my whole life, you break needles constantly and stab yourself with broken needles.

And, like, it’s a fight for every stitch, and you use pliers to get the needle through. Whereas with a brain tanned hide, even a moose hide which is like a really thick skin, you can fold that piece to six, six folds of a width and the needle will still pass through it like butter. So the experience of using it is just truly night and day.

Um, and it’s warmer sometimes. It’s, like, you can make it even watertight despite the fact that the needle passes through it. Um, it smells like a campfire in the best way. Like, it’s just, it’s not, um, chemically harmful to the world at all. Whereas commercially tan hides, like, most tanneries aren’t even in North America anymore because they can’t pass the EPA regulations.

And so it’s all done overseas which still means, like, it’s, it’s, you know, not it’s poisoning somewhere. So, and also, like, the hides, I think one thing I need to make clear is, like, I am incapable of killing anything. I am not a hunter. I have no, like, I would, I can’t even fish. Like, my husband is, like, a major fisherman, and I cannot participate.

I sit on the banks, and I sew, and I eat, and I cheer them on, but I can’t participate. Like, I just, I don’t have the killing bone in my body, but I will happily scavenge hides and, um, fish skins and all kinds of things, too, like feathers or furs. I am happily to scavenge those so that they don’t go to waste.

And I think that’s a really important distinction with how I use products derived from animals in my work. Um, a lot of people think fur is murder and fur is, like, this ultimate sign of over-consumption, but in my opinion, the way that I approach it, it’s completely the opposite. It’s much more sustainable in the way that I take such care with the animals to only use, like, ethically sourced hides, so I know where they came from. I know the hunter who’s fed their family off of that.

And I know that the practice, like, non-Native or Native, like, is to just, um, skin the animal and let the, um, the hide return to the earth which isn’t technically bad. Like, it’s not technically wasted in a lot of ways. Like, that does still nourish trees and things, but, you know, in all your decomposing animal scavengers, but I think that to be able to turn it into something beautiful is also a wonderful thing.

And so, yeah, I am, I’m a scavenger in a lot of ways, and I make sure that, like, that the furs, hides, and any animal products that I use, it has to be ethically sourced, and I have to know its origins. And, like, sometimes I do pay for that premium, but, like, I think it’s worthwhile.

Helen: Mhm, yeah. And, oh my gosh, I have so many questions. You mentioned brain tanning. Am I hearing that correctly?

Kat: Yes!

Helen: Okay, so what is that?

Kat: Yeah, yeah. This is definitely, like, high quality stuff. Um, every animal, except for buffaloes has all of the chemicals necessary to tan its hide within its own brain. And so this is the traditional way that everywhere in the world used to use tanning for their leather. Um, and so it’s the fatty compounds in the brain that, uh, react just perfectly in order to preserve and, sort of, lubricate the fibres of a skin, after a certain point, if you’re doing it properly, in order to make it last and not rot and be preserved and maintain its leather-y-ness, I guess.

Because when you think about it, like, the skin of an animal is just a, kind of, meat. And so if it were to get wet or to become too hot or something or dry out, it might crack and shrink and return into more of a beef jerky state. And so by using the brain or a chemical tanning solution, you can preserve leather in a state that is useful and soft and, uh, functional.

Caroline: And what does that process actually look like? And how long does it take?

Kat: Oof. I am not an expert at this, but I did attend a hide camp in Ontario this summer for 10 days where we learned how to do it, start to finish, and it took 10 days to, sort of, get that part done. Um, so it’s just a lot, a lot of scraping and soaking the hide. So you scrape off the fur and the membrane on the inside, and then you have to rinse it off in a certain way to, sort of, get rid of any bacteria.

And then you soak it in a brain mixture that, sort of, really coats all the fibres, and then you have to stretch it all out in exhausting, exhausting ways to, sort of, soften it and help it to dry, um, in a soft and supple way. And then you smoke it, and the smoking, so you, sort of, take a bunch of, I guess, bark and, sort of, rotten wood that has dried out.

And then you put that over a fire, and it creates this beautiful smoke that changes the leather from a, sort of, sickly grey to that beautiful caramel colour that you think of when you think about buckskin. And so the whole process, start to finish, can take a whole year if you don’t have all the time. And there’s lots of processes where you can, um, let it rest, but, um, start to finish, like, it’s probably a minimum 10 day experience.

Helen: Wow. I mean, that sounds so cool. And I love this concept of hide camp.

Kat: Oh my goodness. Yeah. It’s just, like, a community of people who are all nerdy in the same way that you are getting together to learn about, like, these techniques that have been sort of taken from us and, sort of, taking them back together. It was just, it was a miracle, and the people who ran that hide camp were just phenomenal, and I have nothing but wonderful things to say about it.

Helen: Wow. Very cool. So what do you plan to do with the hide that you tanned at this camp?

Kat: Ah, like, the hide, but I like to explain, like, how precious this thing is. I haven’t yet even been able to, like, think about even taking scissors to it at all.

Helen: Fair.

Kat: But, um, yeah, if I were to sell it, like, the hide, like, a brain tanned buckskin, like, what I have created would start at a thousand dollars. So, like, like, that’s how much work has gone into it. I put it in my sleeping bag with me at night. I was so worried. Not that anyone would steal it, but, like, you just become so attached.

And so eventually, once my heart has, like, you know, calmed down a bit, I’ll probably turn it into a lot of earrings and, like, some baby moccasins for my new niece and maybe, uh, little medicine pouches for, um, loved ones. So yeah, small projects, because I can’t put anything too big because I want to make it last cause I know how long it took me to do.

Helen: Yeah, I love the idea of spreading it around to all those projects.

Kat: Yeah, exactly!

Helen: Yeah. Very cool.

Kat: The answer with me is almost always earrings. I’m such an earring maker.

Caroline: I was going to say, yeah, would you be incorporating things like beading or appliqué into that process and to those finished pieces?

Kat: Oh, for sure, like, to be able to put a needle through hide, like, so easily, like, that’s the luxury. So I wouldn’t use it for fringe or anything because, for me, like, cutting fringe is easy on commercial leather. So I still have, like, bins and bins of scrap commercial leather that I, I’d love to use. And so it makes more sense to use that for fringe. So I make a lot of really, really long fringe earrings. And so, um, those would be more likely to be used commercial leather, or I often cut up really ugly leather coats that no one’s going to buy, another one of my thrift store upcycles, so yeah…

Helen: The ones with the giant shoulder pads.

Kat: Shoulder pads and, like, weird little sleeves. And yet, it’s, like, a Matrix coat length. Like, oh yeah, I try and be ethical at the thrift store and not take things that people should, should be buying.

Helen: You’re saving them.

Kat: My favourite was when I rescued one of those, like, really, kind of, fake pretend Native fringe jackets from Danier. I’m going to have fun cutting this up and turn it into something real Native. Yeah.

Helen: Oh, that’s so perfect. Okay. I think I know the answer to this next question, but is hide tending something you can do, like, at home?

Kat: Uh, believe it or not, but yes, I did all my hide tanning in a park camping this summer, but I did have to bring a lot of the stages home, so my parents got really familiar with me doing something strange in the garage. Um, there’s also fish skin tanning. You can turn fish skin into leather which I had no idea, and it doesn’t get stinky, like, at any stage. So that was really, really nice, um, to learn about that.

And apparently, every culture in the world has a history of fish skin leather, like leather clothing even, because it’s waterproof. So a lot of us would use it for raincoats and things throughout history. And so I had no idea. It’s just such a foreign idea to me, but yeah, Janey Chang is my teacher for fish skin tanning, and I learned so much about it from her.

It’s, it’s really an interesting process. Yeah, so you can do that, and that one is, like, such a low bar of entry. Like, all you need is a fish and, like, black tea, and that’s literally it, I think, maybe some salt. And so, yeah, like, it’s, it’s very simple, and it’s not gross in any capacity. So if you wanted to learn about hide tanning in a really easy, accessible way, I would look up Janey Chang and maybe buy a box of black tea.

Helen: I’m totally going to do this. Do you keep the scales on? Like, how does it look when it’s done?

Kat: I think you can. I think there’s some ways that you can, but the way we learned, um, we took the scales off, and so it ends up this beautiful dark tea colour and it, it ends up really, really soft and, um, just, kind of, fun. I use it as earring backing so far, but I think it’s famously used for bookbinding.

Helen: Oh, cool. Yeah. I was thinking about for us sewists, like, putting a little leather patch on something.

Kat: Yeah, elbow patches.

Helen: Yeah. Or elbow patches. Yeah. That would be so cool.

Kat: Something like that. Yeah. Totally.

Helen: Well, speaking of you being a bit of a scavenger, we know that you found a young porcupine that had died, and you actually collected and cleaned the quills. And we were wondering, what was that experience like? And also what are you going to do with those quills?

Kat: Oh yeah, like, that was such, that was my window. My parents had taken a week holiday, so I was left at their house house sitting. And, um, we had seen a lot of porcupines throughout the summer, and every time we drove by, when I would always beg them to pull over and let me go get it, um, and they’re always like, oh no, we’re late for this, or you can’t do that. We don’t have a thing.

So I started carrying a big towel in my car and, um, gloves and garbage bags and stuff just to have an eye because we saw so many of them. And so when I finally had this perfect opportunity, like, it presented itself and I was able to haul this little porcupine into my parent’s garage while they weren’t home, so they couldn’t protest. And it was so cute. It was so young. It was so sad to see it, it had died, but, like, it was in perfect condition. It wasn’t stinky whatsoever.

Um, it had probably died that morning, just roadkill and, um, it didn’t die violently. So, like, it was completely intact and barely bleeding. Um, and so like, it wasn’t a gross experience. Like, I didn’t have to do anything too invasive. I didn’t cut it up or anything like that. Um, and so I just, I harvested the guard hairs first and the quills, and I followed all these instructions on YouTube. Thank goodness for YouTube. There’s all kinds of Natives out there teaching us how to do this.

And I cleaned the quills and, um, I’ve dyed a few of them. Um, and I use them for quill work, uh, which is, uh, what Native people did before beads, before we had glass beads, we adorned a lot of our jewellery and clothing with porcupine quills, appliquéd on, kind of, like, like, a zigzag bendy straw is the best way to describe it.

Um, so you tack down one side of each quill, and it creates the zigzag pattern and you can get really detailed with colours of different dyes, both natural and RIT. Everybody knows RIT, the universally beloved cheap dye. And so, yeah, yeah. I’m excited about it.

I do a lot of resin work. I’m, kind of, known for my, uh, porcupine quill jewellery that is encased in resin. Um, because I like having the quills still be sharp. And so for a lot of quillwork you end up cutting off the sharp tips. And so I thought it was really cool to keep the danger element of the jewellery visible without actually putting anybody in danger of getting poked.

Helen: That is so cool. I really love resin jewellery. There’s so many cool things you can do just by encasing things in resin. And then they look shiny, too.

Kat: Yeah. Yeah. It’s fun. A little bit dangerous, but once you’re safe, take the right precautions.

Helen: Yeah, cause they’re so sharp, right? Like, there must have been a lot of quills. How many…?

Kat: Oh, I mean, like, the chemicals of the resin.

Helen: Oh!

Kat: The quills themselves, I didn’t get poked even once by that, it was a juvenile. So, like, the quills were fairly short and stubby compared to what you would normally want to work with for most quillwork. But for my purposes, for resin, I like the short quills because I tend to write words in the resin, like, “Land Back” or “skoden” in, like, I like short words that are, you know, that, sort of, wink, uh, element of my, of my work. And so it’s a lot easier to use the short ones to write out words to get those details.

Helen: That makes sense. Well, we are almost through here. I know we’ve kept you for quite a while, but we have a couple more questions. First of all, are there any crafts out there that you plan on learning that you haven’t tried yet?

Kat: Oh, I really want to learn digital art. Um, I’m starting a little bit right now. I’ve joined, um, the Chicago Puppet Fest, this group called Skeleton Canoe. They’re, they’re making a play, and I’m doing the illustrations for, like, it’s, like, a shadow puppet play, kind of, and it’s another Native showrunner named Ty Defoe.

And so they’ve asked me to do illustrations for the back of the shadow stage, I guess. And so they, they, they hired me and sought me out based off of my, uh, lino carving prints, my lino prints, block prints. And so, but I’ve had to really just jump in the deep end and learn how to do digital illustration because I’m such an analog person.

And I had to really think I can’t carve a lino print for every, every scene. Like, like, especially, like, just, like, we’re still workshopping through a lot of it. And so I’ve, I’m really excited to learn more about how to do Procreate and how to do digital illustration. So yeah, I’m branching into the other side of, you know, analog.

Helen: That sounds very cool. Um, yeah. I can’t wait to see where you go with that.

Kat: Yeah. It’s, it’s really, it’s scary cause, like, there’s so much to learn, but, um, I think that’s, you know, part of the fun is learning a new skill.

Caroline: Yeah, and you have done so many different art forms and crafts and you seem to just go for things. So we, kind of, want to know, like, what’s your secret? And do you have any advice on fostering that creative spirit for our listeners?

Kat: Oh, yeah. Just, like, maybe how I look at things is I look at something that I want to do, and then I work backwards on how to get there. So if you see something that somebody else has done that you want to try, but in a different style or your own way, there’s a lot of, sort of, retroactive undoing, like, taking things apart.

I think it’s probably similar with patternmaking. Like, if you see a shirt that you really like, you can same same it by just, you know, having a day of taking it apart and resewing it. So there’s a lot to, uh, yeah, taking things apart. My dad’s an engineer and my mom’s a quilter. And so I’ve always, sort of, grown up in this environment of curiosity from two different, very different spectrums. And so I think I’m that, sort of, sweet spot between an engineer and an artist.

Helen: That’s really interesting. I, I love your approach of focusing on education, and it seems like engineering and quilting is, they’re both based on, like, finding small building blocks and creating a bigger thing. So it makes sense that you would, sort of, work backwards from the final result and, and just figure out the steps that you need to find to get there.

Kat: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Caroline: And before we wrap up, is there anything you wish we would have asked you? Is there anything we haven’t talked about?

Kat: Oh, um, I can’t think of anything. You guys have been incredibly thorough. It’s just been, like, my ego is just about 10 times, I feel like the Grinch.

Caroline: Oh, it should be, you’re so talented. And it was such a pleasure chatting with you today and hearing more about your work. And, um, can you share with our listeners where they can find you online?

Kat: Yeah, so SweetgrassAndSage.com is going to be my website. It should be live by the time this is out. Um, I’m on Instagram as @Sweetgrass_And_Sage. Um, and, um, I’m on TikToK @Sweetgrass_And_Sage. Um, so yeah, those are the best places to find me. I have a lot of fun on social media, um, and I’m not always selling. So if you’re worried about being inundated with sales pitches constantly, like, it’s actually much harder to buy my stuff. I’ll try and make that easier.

Helen: You should be worried about the reverse.

Kat: Yeah. So, so don’t worry if you want to follow me. I’m, I’m, I do a lot of, uh, educational stuff, too, and I share a ton of other people’s work. So if you’re interested in learning about Indigenous beadwork crews and stuff, I’ve got all kinds of highlights, especially on my Instagram page where you can find just, like, phenomenal powerhouses of beadwork from all different tribes across the U.S. and Canada. So, yeah, it’s a really fun place with also a bit of activism. I like to blend activism into things, too. So, yeah, it’s a, a huge mixed bag.

Helen: Well, we love all of it, and thank you again so much for taking the time to chat with us. It’s been really great getting to know you, and yeah, we just really appreciate you and the work that you do.

Kat: Aw, cheers! Yaw^ko and Miigwetch! I appreciate having the chance to come on this incredible podcast.

Caroline: Aw, thank you.

Helen: Thank you so much.

Caroline: Take care!

Helen: Buh-bye.

Kat: Bye.

Helen: That’s it for today’s episode of Love to Sew. You can find me, Helen, at HelensClosetPatterns.com and Caroline at BlackbirdFabrics.com! We’re recording today in beautiful British Columbia, Canada.

Caroline: Go to LoveToSewPodcast.com to find our show notes. They’re filled with links and pictures from this episode. Don’t want to miss that. And if you’d like to get in touch with us, send us an email at hello@LoveToSewPodcast.com.

Helen: If you love Love to Sew and want more, you can sign up for our Patreon! For $5 a month, you get a full-length bonus episode and weekly behind-the-scenes pics. For $10 a month, you get all that PLUS a mini-episode focused on sewing techniques and 15% off codes for both Helen’s Closet and Blackbird Fabrics! Patreon is the best way to support us so that we can keep making quality sewing content. Go to patreon.com/LoveToSew for more info.

Caroline: And thanks to our amazing podcast team. Lisa Ruiz is our creative assistant. Jordan Moore is our editor. And Margaret Wakelee is our transcriber. And thank you, listener, for listening to the show. And we’ll see you next week.

Helen: Bye.

Hi Kat. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Kat: Am I? Sorry! Am I supposed to answer?

Helen: You can just say, um, hi. Thanks for having me or something like that.

Kat: Oh, sorry!

Helen: Totally fair.

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