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Transcript:

Helen: We are recording today on the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territories of the Coast Salish and Kwakwaka’wakw peoples, including Tsleil-Waututh, Squamish, Musqueam, and K’ómoks first nations.

Hello, and welcome to Love to Sew. I’m Helen, the designer behind Helen’s Closet Patterns.

Caroline: And I’m Caroline, the owner of Blackbird Fabrics.

Helen: We’re two sewing buds who love to sew our own clothes and want to encourage you on your sewing journey, too.

Caroline: Join us for today’s interview with Emilia Bergoglio.

Helen: Hello, Emilia. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Emilia: Oh, thank you for having me.

Helen: We’re so excited to chat with you. Can you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

Emilia: Sure. My name is Emilia Bergogolio. I apologize for the unpronounceable Italian surname. I’m from Italy, and my pronouns are they/them.

Helen: Fantastic, and we know that you’re from Italy, but where are you living now?

Emilia: So, now I live in Tokyo. I came here for my master’s degree, and I stayed for my PhD, and now I work here.

Caroline: Amazing. How long have you been living there?

Emilia: Uh, about six years now.

Caroline: Wonderful. I want to know a little bit more about what you do because you have a pretty cool day job.

Emilia: Uh, so as a background, I’m a neuroscientist, but related to biology, not psychology. So very much about cells, et cetera and specifically, geneticist. So, for a long time, I worked on the genetic basis of various disorders, especially disorders of the development, like autism. And now I work for a startup which makes, uh, software as medical devices. So we make some AI which helps doctors diagnose Alzheimer’s or other types of dementia. So still in neuroscience but less, less in the lab and more in front of the computer.

Helen: So you’re making robot doctors?

Emilia: Doctors who live inside a very powerful computer. Yes.

Helen: Perfect. I understand completely.

Emilia: Yes. I hope, I hope they don’t wake up one day and say, “Emilia, you’re being terminated.”

Caroline: Oh my gosh. Well, obviously we’re here to talk about sewing today, as fascinating as all of that is. Um, why don’t we start off with you sharing a little bit about your sewing journey and how and when you learned to sew.

Emilia: So, actually I started sewing fairly recently, so when I was starting my PhD, so about four years ago, for three reasons, basically, one of it I desperately needed a hobby and, uh, besides, I dunno, like lettering and calligraphy, uh, something more engaging. And then I was really into, uh, ethical fashion and I was br-. So, first of all, as a PhD student, I had, like, no money whatsoever, and I was browsing these ethical fashion collections thinking, this is not so, I mean, it doesn’t look so hard. How hard can it be? I can do it myself.

And I was not completely new to sewing because I come from a very, very tiny village, actually a hamlet, in the very north of Italy, in a region which is famous for wool manufacturing. And everybody in my family works in wool manufacturing. And so, I mean, I, I knew how to operate a sewing machine, but I didn’t never, I never, I had never sewn anything start to finish. Uh, so I got a sewing machine, and the rest is history.

Helen: Amazing. And what was your first introduction to the sewing online community? When did you discover that part of it?

Emilia: Actually, when I was looking for a specific, so at the beginning,I was self drafting a lot, but I discovered that you could buy patterns. And actually, the first thing I found was the Ogden Cami. And from that, I discovered that there was an entire universe of sewing on Instagram, but I actually didn’t engage until maybe a couple of years ago.

Caroline: Very, very cool. I want to go back to something you said, just because I’m curious, um, you mentioned you were, kind of, on a budget and you decided looking at ethical fashion, “I can do that for cheaper maybe.” How do you feel about that now? Do you still feel like sewing is maybe a budget way of, of getting cool clothes in your life?

Emilia: I think it depends on the fabric you use a lot. So for me it is very budget because I get most of my fabrics for free. If it is for, for suits, yeah, I get most of them for free, so definitely a cheap way. And if you upshop your fabrics or if you upcycle, yeah, sure. However, generally speaking, definitely not a cheap way to achieve a whole new wardrobe, especially now in the age of fast fashion, but you know, you will have, if everything considered, uh, considering that you will make something which is completely custom for you and fits you perfectly and in fabric of your choosing when it ends and you can wear for a very long time, then it ends up being cheaper, but upfront costs not so small, I would say.

Caroline: Mhm. Mhm. And then when you factor in the time and everything.

Emilia: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I try not to factor in the time too much because it’s my hobby. So it’s hobby time. If I were sewing for pay, yeah, then definitely, but, I mean, you have to keep that in mind.

Caroline: Of course. Of course. I want to talk a little bit about your style because we absolutely love your personal style, and I’m hoping you can describe it for our listeners who maybe haven’t discovered you yet.

Emilia: So, actually, I shouldn’t, um, if I have to describe my style, it will be the three M’s: modern, minimalist, and monochrome. I, 90% of the time, wear total black. Uh, there is always black. And generally, it’s total black or black and white. If I really want to feel extravagant, I wear gray. And it’s modern, I would say in its silhouettes, and minimalist because I don’t do prints. So everything is pretty much more, I rely more on structure and texture than on flounces or, like, fun details like that. And I enjoy tailoring a lot.

Helen: Yes. We love your more tailored pieces, and we’re really excited to get some tailoring tips from you a bit later on, but I’m curious if you feel like your style is influenced by the places that you’ve lived, like first, Italy and now, Japan.

Emilia: Yeah. People do ask me that, but I don’t think so. So, of course my style has evolved with time, but it’s more, I think, influenced by the people in my life. So when I was younger, I was much more into, so not really preppy, but that’s more or less the style I was into, and then, I mean, I still have this very good friend who was into modern minimalism, Scandi minimalism, and she influenced me a lot. And now, when I got into tailoring and now wear a lot of tailoring, but like, if you look around in Japan, there are a bit of all the styles. So I wouldn’t say that I’m influenced by one in particular. It’s more like an actual evolution of my persona.

Helen: That makes a lot of sense. And the other thing we were curious about is the role that sewing has played in your gender presentation over the past few years, since you’ve learned to sew.

Emilia: Oh boy, where to start, and so honestly, there’s been up’s and down’s because, so on one end, uh, it has been a godsend for my dysphoria because now I don’t have to go to a store and shop in a specific section. I can just make it myself and, uh, the garment I make doesn’t have any gender attached to it. There’s just something I’ve made.

On the other hand, when looking for patterns online, it’s often clear, even if it’s not stated that it’s often clear, what is the type of customer a pattern maker is looking for. And this still brings me a bit of, um, yeah, dysphoria, I would say. But overall, I would say it’s, uh, it has been better for me to sew than to shop, gender wise.

Caroline: Yeah. And we’d really love to dive a little bit deeper into gender and degendering fashion and sewing and, kind of, really get into that topic. But before we get into that, I want to ask you just a quick question about your handle on social media and on your blog because you’re called @emilia_to_nuno. Let me know if I’m pronouncing that right. Um, but what does that mean?

Emilia: So it means Emilia and fabric in Japanese. So Emilia is obviously my name and to means and in Japanese and nuno is one of the ways to say fabrics, actually, it’s this specific way to say fabric as opposed to kijiji. Actually, when I was looking for a handle, I have this dear friend who was a lab colleague, and she was like, oh no, no, no, you have to have a handle in Japanese. Absolutely. And so we spent, like, three days brainstorming and she proposed like very difficult country games because she loves puns like that. Who, nobody who doesn’t speak Japanese would ever understand. And in the end we settled for @emilia_to_nuno because even before sewing, uh, I was a collector of fabric. So as I said, as I said earlier, I come from a place, uh, famous for wool. So, you know, like, relatives would always give me like offcuts or leftovers for me to play, and even in Japan here, there is a strong, kind of, like in Italy, there is a strong fabric, uh, history everywhere you go in Japan. So every little town will have its own special craft and its own special fabric. So I was traveling in Japan by means of fabric. So it was like a no-brainer to have fabric in the handle.

Caroline: Yeah. I think a lot of, uh, sewists can probably relate to that, uh, love of fabric. And it’s such a huge part of the sewing process as well.

Emilia: Yeah. I feel like collecting fabric and sewing are actually two distinct hobbies.

Caroline: Yeah, we love to call fabric stashes “fabric collections” because you’re just going to have them for a long time, hopefully. Well, let’s talk about, uh, some of the work that you’ve been doing in this sewing community. You’ve written some really great pieces related to being non-binary, and we really loved your degendering fashion series in Seamwork magazine and your “Tailoring for Them” series on your blog, for example. And we’re thinking before we dive in, we’re hoping you can tell us and our listeners about what we mean when we say gender and what it means when something is gendered.

Emilia: So before talking about gender, we have to take a step back and characterize what’s gender as opposed to sex. So sex is the biological sex, so, you know, chromosomes, hormones, primary and secondary sex characteristics, which historically has been defined as a binary as well. But this, I mean, this could be an entire different podcast episode, but actually even sex is not really a binary, but this is besides the point at the moment.

So, gender, on the other hand, is a societal construct that includes norms, roles, relationships between two groups. So in, in many Western society, uh, gender is assigned on the basis of sex, based on sex. So if somebody is born female sex, they will be set, they will be called, “Oh, girl.” So, gender girl. And if they’re born with a male sex, then gender boy. And then when they grow up, they will be woman and man. Actually, something that I really want to stress is that, uh, gender really varies a lot with societies and times, and actually, modern gender is a complete fiction.

It’s an European imperialist invention, even, even in European history until pretty much the 17th century. And here actually I’m referencing the scholarship of, uh, for example, Ann Orlander, Thomas Lacquer, and Greg Thomas, so who are three among the many scholars who have researched this topic. So, like, until the 17th century, the great vision in clouds was mostly about class and not gender, which doesn’t mean that everybody was wearing the same, but the garments were, kind of, similar.

And, um, in, on the other end, there were not, um, cross-dressing laws, but there were sumptuary laws. So laws defining, even in Japan, in the Edo period, actually defining who in which class could wear what, and then we for European imperialism, gender, this very big divide, gender distinction, became much more radical and it’s how we see it now.

And this was used as a racist plot to show how European, white European, settlers were actually superior from, because of their big gender distinctions when compared to the colonized countries and the colonized peoples. So in this, this political dynamic trickles down then, as I, kind of, touched on earlier, with cross-dressing to cross-dressing laws, so prohibiting one gender from wearing items of another.

And now we’re not in the era of cross-dressing laws anymore, but still, clothing is still very much gendered. And, um, so this is what we mean when we say something is gendered. So a gender label has been applied onto it for no apparent good reason.

Caroline: Right. Yeah. No, thank you for, thank you for explaining that. And it’s interesting because I think it can be hard to see the culture that surrounds you. Kind of like asking a fish to look at the water. Like, obviously fashion is gendered right now. Um, and you know, we’re hoping that that will change in the future, but what are some real-world examples of how we see that right now?

Emilia: But for example, so for women’s wear, this is now less clear because women have taken many of the items of clothing of men, traditionally of men, like, like pants, but the opposite is not so true actually.

So becau-, and this is also because of the misogynistic conception that everything adjacent to femininity is bad, so fashion and frivolity are completely to be disregarded. So for example, people who are AMA or assigned male at birth, or even men dressed in something which is perceived feminine, like making fun of, or even assaulted.

So, and, uh, I mean, gender fashion can seem like completely benign if you’re not gender nonconforming, but actually, it is deeply problematic. I mean, not just for everybody who is a, I would say, I mean, in finger quotes, of course, outside the norms, whatever those norms are, but then even for people who are not into, you know, not non-gender nonconforming, um, still restricts options, and fashion should be for everybody who wants to participate in it, not classed into, you know, distinct and separate groups.

Helen: Yeah. We couldn’t agree with you more on that point. And I’m curious what your thoughts are about where we’re currently at with quote unquote gender neutral fashion because I’m noticing more and more companies marketing towards this group of people and creating fashion for them. But what are your thoughts on that? Because it seems like a lot of these fashions, like you said, are derived from mostly men’s wear.

Emilia: Yeah. So I have a big issue with that. And, uh, so first of all, in terminology because many say unisex and I’m like, what is this term? This makes no sense. So we’re not even talking about gender anymore. What is this unisex? One sex? Whose sex? Who decides? No. And, um, and also, like, some of these companies market as androgynous which is another term I have issues with. Sorry. I have plenty of issues.

So, so because actually androgyny-, so I also use androgyny for myself when I first came out. But when I re-, because I took it semantically, being a very semantic person. So, you know, from the Greek, it means just mix-, mixing of female and male, a intermediate form. But then in the use of the English language, this has lost that semantic connotation.

And in the end, what androgyny and unisex do is just perpetrating gender stereotypes. So, you know, of men, maleness, and masculine dress being the standard, and female bodies and female dress and femininity being, like, the subpar version we should really avoid. So actually they’re quite reactionary. Instead, what I would like to see is, um, first of all, calling your colle-, if you want to do an open to everybody collection, call it gender neutral, gender inclusive or a term I recently discovered, which I love, gender expansive.

Helen: Ooh.

Emilia: Great. Yeah. And instead of just doing adapted men’s wear on different bodies, put everybody on your offerings, like put people in a dress, put a man in a dress. So, you know, like, because that’s the core of degendering fashion. It’s not making, it’s not a style. It’s not the, like, the potato sack, everything in beige. No, degendering fashion means opening up, having more options and removing labels in favor of, for example, descriptions so that anybody could really wear whatever they want.

So, and I am a big advocate for going to stores and instead of reading, I don’t know, women’s tops, which means nothing outside of a specific cultural context, having descriptions. So, I don’t know, darted blouses, cami tops. Or like, just straight shirts, button up shirts. Um, and this would help everybody cause actually, this is something like I really came to realize is living in Japan.

Because this is now they have, now everybody uses Western dress, right? And so I get many questions from my colleagues who, and because many want to participate in tailoring, but they don’t know what’s what, because this is not part of their cultural context. And they come with this gendered language and I’m like, or these ideas that, oh, like if I’m a man, I should wear blue. Not necessarily! Like, if you want to rock an orange suit, rock an orange suit. So, yeah, definitely, it’s just, you know, all cultural and, and these gender norms and gender dress is really not carved in stone, so it was built 200 years ago. We can, you know, unbuild it and build something new.

Caroline: Yeah. Can we talk a little bit more about gendered fashion? You mentioned it’s problematic, the terminology that, that way of thinking, but can we get specific about some of the downsides to gendering fashion?

Emilia: Well, as I said earlier, so it’s a restriction of options for everybody, right? Not just for people who are living, I mean, who are gender nonconforming and by perpetrating this ideology, so to speak, I mean, I wouldn’t really even call it ideology, just like, you know, this, the status quo, this basically, kind of, reinforces division between the two genders. So it’s profoundly, like, backwards. Now here, like, oh yeah, we’re for gender equality and in this and that, but then this is just words, right?

If it doesn’t also manifest itself in more freedom of choice in dress, then I don’t know. I don’t know what we’re talking about then because, you know, dress is also a language. It’s the first thing people see, the first thing which gives them an idea about you even before you open your mouth. And, you know, even in the gender nonconforming community, or in the trans community, there is a lot of tension because we also can’t make up our mind about what we want because being clothing a language, people who are, for example, binary trans, they want to be read as man, or they want to be read as woman. So, it is a difficult issue which we are, I mean, it will take time to resolve, but we have to work together toward some resolution which makes the majority, I mean, the most amount, the greatest number of people happy.

Helen: Mhm.

Emilia: I don’t know if that answered your question.

Helen: It does. And I think, like you said, there’s a lot of progress to be made, and we need to work together because I think sometimes there’s this idea that, well, I don’t care. People can wear whatever they want, but it’s not that simple because other people might not feel safe wearing whatever they want.

Emilia: Yeah, exactly. And if you see the amount of attacks and violent attacks and even murder of trans and gender nonconforming people in the west, it’s really astonishing. So when people tell me, oh, but of course you can wear whatever you want. I laugh at their faces because clearly some people cannot and, um, and people are attacked not just because of what they wear, not even for them, I mean, the attack for the personhood in addition to that, for what they wear.

So it’s very tricky if you’re a, a young trans person in the west now, um, not to be afraid. You know, because people will just, like, hate you and violently attack you just because of you existing.

Helen: Yeah. And I mean, it might seem obvious after saying that, but what are some of the benefits of degendered fashion? And in your vision for it, at least, how do you see us getting there?

Emilia: So the benefit is more options for everybody which from a producer perspective is bigger market. So already it should be a no-brainer, right? So I think I want to stress is also that we cannot just, so maybe I’m hoping that degendering fashion will be the proxy for bigger societal change. And so if, if possible, deconstruction of gender, as we know it now because that would actually impart a lot of change in society as well. So we can start from something so simple as, uh, dress and then work our way upwards. It will be a great added benefit.

Helen: Yeah. I really like that perspective because it is such a constant in our everyday life. And if we can make some small changes to that area, it could definitely spread and become a much bigger thing. And one thing that I’ve heard when it comes to degendering fashion is people saying like, oh, if we do that, then we’re all going to be walking around in shapeless sack dresses, which is hilarious, but what would you say to somebody who has this, sort of, initial reaction to the idea of degendering fashion?

Emilia: Well, it’s, uh, I mean, it’s, it’s funny, indeed. Um, so as I said earlier, degendering doesn’t mean that everybody will be wearing, you know, luta dresses. It just means opening up options and, uh, yeah, degendering means, degendering just means options basically. So, no, of course, you can still wear whatever you want.

And if you like, uh, garish paisley motifs from the seventies, wear that. And if you like luta dresses then wear luta dresses. So it’s not, because degendering is not, like, a style. Degendering means degendering, that’s it. It’s just a, it’s just the removal of labels. So it’s not a style.

Helen: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Do you think that all paisleys are garish? I have to ask.

Emilia: No, it’s just the first thing which came to me. No, but I don’t, I don’t do prints actually, so except in my ties. And I do have, I do have paisley ties, so…

Helen: Yeah. I mean, I read on your website that you don’t like the color orange which happens to be my favorite color, so…

Caroline: Helen’s feeling a little defensive.

Helen: Yeah.

Emilia: Yeah, so, like, I really can’t send the color orange because it’s between two great colors, yellow, which is my favorite color, and red, which is like a badass color. So I’m just like, why, orange? Why?

Helen: Fair enough. Fair enough.

Emilia: But, no, no issue with people who like orange. Um, like, we all have our flaws. No, I’m joking.

Helen: Wow. Okay.

Emilia: This will definitely be in the podcast. And I will be canceled by everybody who loves orange.

Helen: I’m just going to cut it together so that you’re saying “I love orange.”

Caroline: Oh my gosh. Oh, well obviously, yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s a shame that we aren’t in this place now where we can just walk into a store and not have a men’s and women’s section and have clothes for everybody, you know, but we aren’t there yet. And I wonder what advice you would give to someone who wants to dress in clothing outside of the quote unquote norms of their gender, but needs a bit of encouragement in that area?

Emilia: So, uh, to this person, I would say first and foremost, hi, and I love you. And you’re seen and valid and, but think of your safety. So, safety should come first. So, I mean, you have to consider if it is, if you can actually go out in the world expressing your gender as you want safely. And, and if, if you can, then maybe start small. Start from accessories and work, so you don’t have to go full diverting the gender norms all at once. You can do, like, one thing at a time. And also it’s, you know, it’s so people think, oh, if I am a, for example, if I’m AMA so assignment at birth, and I want to be gender nonconforming, I should then automatically wear skirts and stilettos. No, you can do it more subtly or not that wearing skirts and stilettos is not subtle, but you can do, like, small things or take colors, which in your culture are not generally associated with, uh, your gender or, yeah, just start small.

And you will have to develop a very thick skin because people will make comments and, you know, just don’t care about them. You do you. You’re valid.

Helen: Aw, thank you for that. I’m sure there are some listeners out there that really need to hear that, so we appreciate it. I’m curious, too, what are some actions that us in the sewing community as a whole can take to start to degender fashion, maybe in the ways that we’re presenting our makes online or the way we’re commenting with other people when we’re interacting?

Emilia: So from a single sewist’s perspective, there is not so much you can do except being respectful of others. And if you enter a space, sewing space, don’t automatically default to, “Hello, ladies.” Just, “Hello, friends.” I dunno, “Esteemed guests,” or whatever. I don’t know, comrades. That’s what I would say, “Comrades, hello.”

Then, if you’re, like, a pattern maker or a brand of some sort, feature more people and more diversity. So already we have made great improvements. I mean, not fast enough if you ask me, but still we’re, we’re getting there with size inclusivity and race inclusivity. So why not also gender inclusivity? And as I was saying earlier, if you sell patterns, so don’t take this personally, but, uh, if you sell patterns and you just basically, if you been, don’t say anything about the gender, so you don’t say women’s wear patterns, but then everybody in your offering is, in your pictures is AFA people or women, then that sends me a message about who is the person you have in mind will make your patterns. So change that and, uh, feature more diverse sewists, more diverse models. Put gender nonconforming, or even completely rock the gender boat, by putting somebody who is a man, identifies as a man, is very sure of his manhood, in a dress because, you know, there is just, it makes no sense to attach gender into so much cultural meaning to something which is inanimate, you know, so…

Helen: Definitely. Yeah. And I, I’m definitely not offended. I find your work very inspiring, and it’s informing a lot of decisions moving forward for me, personally, as a pattern designer. So I’ve learned a lot from you, and I was excited to chat with you today to learn even more. It’s something that we’ve been working on at Helen’s Closet. So I’m hoping to continue to improve things moving forward.

Emilia: I think you’re already kind of ahead of the curve though, so that’s good. That’s good for you. Good business sense.

Caroline: I wonder, Emilia, if you can give us some examples, if you can think of any companies that are doing this well right now that are setting a good example.

Emilia: Oh boy. Actually, I have a, kind of, comprehensive list on my, both on my website and on my Instagram page. Um, because basically, there are very few people who are really like, I mean, there are many pattern companies, which do not say, state any gender, so, but that’s just the first step, right? So, and I think Muna and Broad is one of the few who actually features, at the least, non binary, uh, models.

I mean, it also has to be said Muna and Broad models are Muna and Broad. And then, I mean, they’re, you know, the two people behind the pattern company, and then they, they do have another model who isn’t binary. So that’s number one. Um, then, uh, Free Sewing is one where actually they take it further because they have two blocks and one is, like, curved block with shaped bust and the other one is not shaped bust.

Um, so that’s what I mean, like, just put descriptions. So there is a very small company called Petite Stitchery which has just adult patterns. Uh, I’m thinking Rational Dress Society, but they have, like, one pattern. Also, they’re Marxists, so it’s awesome. Oh, but Wendy Ward! How can I forget? Wendy Ward in, in their books, everybody wears whatever. So, it’s good. And I was not very familiar with their patterns until I found the pattern books in Japan. And I was like, oh, this is interesting.

Actually, another one which comes to mind is, um, Spokes and Stitches. I believe is the name. There’s one person. And so far they have only made one pattern, but they Kickstarted, they did a Kickstarter campaign to develop more patterns. And everything is, like, starts completely gender neutral. So, yeah, that’s the thing. So, because it’s, I think if you’re like an established pattern company, it’s a bit harder to, like, retrofit all your patterns to be gender neutral, but, like, new parent companies, they have no excuse. So, I really appreciated, like, Spokes and Stitches because they started immediately with, like ,gender neutral and gender inclusive and gender expansive across the world. Sorry I really love this word, gender expansive.

Helen: Yeah, I really like it, too.

Emilia: Yeah.

Helen: Yeah, no, those are great tips. We’ll put all of those in the show notes. I mean, it is a little bit hard to retrofit, but it’s not that hard. Like, we’ve gone through and removed the gendered language from our patterns, and it really wasn’t that hard to do. Um, so I think that it’s a great thing if companies can go back and fix that up.

Emilia: Another thing I appreciate is being open to advice, not advice but opinions. So recently, I can’t remember who it was, a major pattern company, they released a pants pattern. And they wanted to be, like, I appreciate the sentiment because basically, they, they had different models to model these pants. And there was also, like, I believe the brother of the pattern maker. I mean, a guy who’s AMA, a person who’s AMA, who turned out to be a guy. And, and in the description they said something along the lines like, oh, it’s certified to fit also men.

So, and I emailed them and said, listen, maybe you can say, this can fit a variety of bodies and gender expression. Just don’t say that, that’s really rubs the wrong way. And, um, and we had a discussion, and they were, like, super open to the feedback. They even wanted to compensate me for the feedback. And I was like, listen, no, just change it. It’s fine. So, also that, not being so, because somebody is coming to tell you.

Generally, people don’t want to attack strangers, right? I mean, generally speaking, at least, so somebody who is gender nonconforming, or even who is offended by what you say comes and politely tells you, explain to you why, then don’t take it the wrong way. Listen, and you can have a conversation. But I guess I’m very used to not being listened to when it comes to degendering and being trolled. So I found it refreshing that somebody was listening.

Helen: Aw, yeah, that’s really awesome. I mean, we try to remain open here on the show, too, to feedback. So if any of our listeners have thoughts on this, they’re welcome to reach out as well. But when we launched our Jackson pattern, we got some feedback about using the term gender neutral and maybe switching to gender inclusive, or now I know gender expansive, which is pretty cool. And also just pointing out that if you’re marketing one pattern in a collection as gender inclusive, then what does that make all the other patterns?

Emilia: Exactly. Yeah.

Helen: Which was not my intention at all cause I, I do want anyone to make our patterns who wants to make them, so that really made me think. And now we’ve been going back and changing a few things and moving forward, not going to be marketing things as specifically gender inclusive because that’s all of our patterns. So yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. And I always appreciate when people are willing to give their time to give that feedback.

Emilia: Yeah. So, I mean, the language is one step, and it’s the first step. And thank you for doing that. Thank you for doing that work, but that also has to have actions. So more variety models is clearly something which is needed.

Helen: Oh yeah, definitely. I, I’m excited for that moving forward, as well. Can you tell us a bit about your Tailoring For Them series on your blog?

Emilia: So, first of all, I have to give credit where credit is due. So if the name is not my invention, was suggested by Marcy, @oonaballoona. Cause I was brainstorming a name which was, like, catchy, and she messaged me, oh, why don’t you do Tailoring For Them? And I was like, you’re a genius. I will. Thank you. You’re a genius.

Um, so basically my idea behind the series was to, kind of, really deconstruct, first of all, deconstruct what degender is and when we use it, but in the context of tailoring, and then provide inclusive and expansive, I mean, gender inclusive and expansive, and also inclusive of many things, instructions and, like, tips and tricks and also my own personal experience with tailoring to whoever wants to read, basically.

Caroline: Yeah. And your tailored pieces are so, so cool. We’ll definitely be sharing some photos of, uh, your gorgeous garments on Instagram this week, but we’d love to learn a little bit more about tailoring from you. My first question would be, how did you start? Like, how did you start to build this skill? It seems like there’s so much to know.

Emilia: Uh, yeah, there is actually. I mean, it’s complex but very rewarding. And, uh, I was always into this more structured pieces, and I always enjoyed tailoring. And one day I was just like, you know what, I mean, this is actually hard, and I can get some books and build on it. And also, I befriended a tailor, so I, kind of, stald this poor guy, not stalk but, uh, like, every, every time I see him, uh, we talk basically, maybe we have, so it’s my, my spouse’s tailor. And so my spouse gets to do the fitting for, like, half an hour. And then there is, like, an hour and a half of the two of us chatting about tailoring.

So, um, and he gave me a lot of advice, and I want to stress the fact that, um, so because if you approach tailoring from online sources, and especially on the Instagram sewing commun-, community, you will be scared. You will think tailoring is one thing, but actually, tailoring is many things.

Tailoring is actually only about two things, honestly: balance and creating an illusion. And so visual balance and portraying the image that you want to portray. And, uh, and so, and there are many schools of thought, and the differences, now famously, there is, kind of, a tug of war between two particular schools, the Neapolitan school and the Savile Row school.

And if you look online, some somewhat encounter tendency from people who blog about suits, specifically, who enjoy a lot Neapolitan tailoring. Now, Savile Row tailoring is very popular among sewists, and if you see that, if you approach that as a start, it’s very intimidating. So I would say don’t be intimidated. Just take it one step at a time. Get some books. I can recommend some books, and there is a thorough list on my blog as well. And be, and be, the only skill, the only thing you need, the only item you really need is patience.

Caroline: Yeah. I think that’s a given. I wonder, um, I’m pretty intrigued by this Neapolitan versus Savile Row tailoring thing. Like, can you give us the Coles Notes of what the differences are between these two? I don’t know if we’re jumping down a rabbit hole here, but I’d love to know.

Emilia: So, I mean, it’s bit of a rabbit hole, but actually, it’s very important to make this distinction. And I, and I will never be tired of saying that in tailoring, there is no right and wrong answer. It’s all about the effect. It’s all about what you want. So you can mix and match from different tailoring schools, for example, but also, also works if that creates the silhouette you want. Um, but I believe it’s important to know the basics and know the history and, like, what are finger quotes, again, the rules, so then you can put them in the toilet.

Um, so but coming to your question, so Neapolitan tailoring is all about the ease and the ease of movement and the, because Nap-, I mean, life in Naples is quirky and chaotic and hot most of the year. And so Neapolitan tailoring reflects this, and there is absolutely no shoulder padding, no padding whatsoever, minimal amount of canvassing, no lining. Generally, lining is superfluous. One of the features is for simple spalla a camicia, specific construction of the shoulder or slight con rollino and lapels are different. They’re slightly wider and the quarters are open, uh, and the jacket is generally a bit more cropped. Um, so all this, kind of, tiny things and, like, the buttonholes, the placement of the buttonholes and how the buttonholes are constructed is different.

I’m really summarizing greatly here, but on my blog, I have a more in-depth description.

While Savile Row tailoring is, like, what we think of for, this prototypical suit, right? This is for the banker, my spouse says. So, like, heavy padding, heavy canvassing, very structured, and very conservative looking. That’s basically it, but this is even, I mean, in Italy and in England, then there are multiple styles and then there are styles in between like, uh, so if you think Neapolitan suitings are rakish, look at Cifonelli which, and they do exaggeration of everything, exaggerated con- and let’s see, exaggerated lapels, exaggerated pagoda shoulders, and people like it. Because as I said, you know, there is not right and wrong. It’s all about what you like.

Helen: Mhm, and do you think that you personally, like, lean towards one school or another?

Emilia: Actually, yeah, I, kind of, do a mix because I, I do very little canvas. I mean, we should really talk about canvas here and, but I don’t do shoulder padding. so in the way I structure, I mean, the silhouette and the general construction is more Neapolitan, but then I do take some things, some piece of advice from Savile Row tailoring because they serve my purpose. But yeah, but I more mix and match which is, uh, maybe we should really do some comparative study because online, I see a lot of people doing really what it’s more British tailoring, and, but they don’t really know about it. And then they, because then they think that that’s tailoring, but that’s no, one style of tailoring.

Caroline: Oh yeah. It’s so interesting. I mean, I had no idea that there, that there were, kind of, two schools, so this is, this is fascinating. I’m learning a lot, but let’s get more technical on this cause we definitely have a question about canvasing in here. But first off, I just want to talk about your amazing tailored jackets and pants that you make. And I’m hoping you can describe some of the suit jackets and blazers, particularly, that you’ve made for our listeners.

Emilia: So yeah. What do you want to know specifically?

Caroline: Um, do you have any favorites, like, that you can, kind of, spotlight maybe, and we’ll share those on, on social this week?

Emilia: In the summer, nothing really in the summer. I’ve made it in spring. But for the summer, I made a linen suit which so far is, like, the best fitting. And then immediately after I made just a white sports coat so, like, a blazer, which also fits very well. And basically, it’s always works like that. So I developed my own patterns. And then, you know, you make the first one and then you wear it it, and you discover, oh, I would like the sleeve to be a bit shorter or the armscye to be smaller. Or I don’t really like the positioning of this vent. I want to move it a bit inner or whatever.

So generally speaking, if you ask me what’s my favorite, always the last one I’ve made because it’s the one which is going to fit the best. But they’re all, kind of, special in some ways because I, with every piece, I experiment a bit, especially with the wools because I have quite a stock of wools which are given to me as factory seconds from my relatives. So I get to sew, some are like, even, I even made fully fused to see how it worked out.

So, but my advice to everybody who approaches jacket making is to find a pattern you like, and then experiment with it and experiment with the gorge or the size of the vents or the location of the vents or the size of the lapels, the quarter. So really, like, find your silhouette. This will take time, obviously, but it will be very rewarding.

Helen: Yeah. That’s really good advice to get a pattern that you like to start with. Um, when it comes to, like, fitting a blazer, do you make many, many muslins before you get started or do you just start messing with the actual fabric and taking things in here and there and adding padding and things like that?

Emilia: So for this particular blazer I’ve made, I actually did one muslin. And, I mean, one toile, and that was it. Then, when I immediately cut on the good fabric because I mean, from the toile, you get the idea, okay, this is going to fit, or this is going to be a disaster. And I found some trouble spots which I corrected. And then I immediately started on the good fabric. Um, because I mean, I knew it was going to fit, but, um, only way I find that, the only way where you can really find, uh, the moment that the spots which really need targeting, um, because sometimes, you know, you don’t realize until you move, you move around a bit.

And, um, and it’s very difficult to move around when you just have a pin muslin or the toile doesn’t have, you know, all the layers. That’s why the canvassing, that’s why tailors do multiple fittings. You know, the first fitting is for the tailor to check that everything is where it should be and everything hangs straight. And then you do more fittings for the client. See how they feel. And the fitting is not, like, 10 minutes, it’s, like, hours.

Helen: That makes sense.

Caroline: I have to ask, too, cause you mentioned gorge, and I’ve never heard that word before. What is that?

Emilia: So the gorge is the line where the lapel meets the collar, and historically, it has moved up and down. Um, so for example, in the sixties, oh no, in the thirties, the gorge was, like, super low. And uh, so now the gorge is very high, or too high in the case of Cifonelli. Sorry, no love lost between Cifonelli and me. Cause people like it, so I don’t know. I don’t like the style of tailoring, but people like it, so I’m happy for them. Because the gorges are very, very high.

And because tailoring is all about visual balance and you have to, kind of, be careful to pick the gorge which complements, complements you, or, I mean, meaning gives the effects you want to achieve. So, for example, I have very broad shoulders. So I have, having a high gorge makes my chest look very expanded which is what I want to minimize. And my shoulder look, kind of, like they’re hanging out on top of this gigantic chest. So I lower my gorges a bit, so the chest looks smaller, and it really emphasizes my broad, muscular shoulders.

Caroline: Of course. Yeah, it makes so much sense. So it’s that point, kind of, where the, the collar and the lapel meet, where it makes that little V-shape, that line, and it can impact that, the look of your jacket so much. So that makes so much sense that that’s something that you would explore when you’re, kind of, finding your style. So cool. Thank you for sharing. Okay. Let’s talk about canvassing cause we we’ve mentioned it a couple of times. Can you, can you describe what that is and how do you canvas a suit jacket?

Emilia: So the canvas is an additional piece of fabric which is used as interlining to give structure. And there are actually multiple types, it’s very confusing because there are multiple types of canvas. And actually, I didn’t know the names in English. I only know them in Japanese, so I had to Google them.

So first of all, there is a canvas which is a the canvas, which is the French canvas which is generally made of linen. And you use for the collar to pat stitch the collar because it gives, like, a nice structure, so you can really shape it to be in this nice curve. And some people use it for shoulders, too, but that only comes into play if you’re, when doing padding.

And then there is the canvas proper which we can divide into two categories. One is the body canvas which is generally made of wool. So it’s called kejin in Japanese which interesting in Japan comes in different weights, depending on your fabric choice. So now I use very fine ones which are generally recommended for summer wear, but I use it year round because I am, I’m contrarian, like that. It’s heso-magari in Japanese. It’s such a fun term because it means your navel is twisted.

Helen: Oh, really?

Emilia: Yeah, so I have a twisted navel, I’m heso-magari. Yeah, so and then on top of the body canvas, you put the, the famous horse hair. So umasushin in, in Japanese. Uma is horse which is, um, a bit prickly because it’s made with actual horse hair, I mean, with the mane of the horse. And so that and that you put on lapel and chest and that you have because it’s prickly, you want to line it with domette or flannel, so, so you doesn’t prick you. So, but then, so this is like the tea on canvas, you can absolutely use all the three canvases and do, like, a multi-layered thing on your top.

However, I mean, but this is really coming from British tailoring, and as we all know, England not famous for, for it’s four seasons. So, um, so tailoring, tailoring schools really evolved as a factor of the climate and the people, so if you’re living in a place like Japan where it’s hot most of the year, um, you will not want something which is so canvas because it’s just too hot. So instead, what you can do is, I, this is what I do, I just use body canvas and I do half, half a canvas actually.

So in this case, the canvas, instead of going from your shoulder line to the bottom of your jacket, it’s only on the lapel and chest area. And then in the rest, if you really want to get some structure, you can fuse. And I’ve actually had good results with a fully fused jacket that you have to buy, you have to be careful to buy, like, high quality fusible. I had good luck with, like, three core types. So you can, like, fuse the front and, um, invent canvas half of the body, and you can do some stitch-.

Now what’s essential though I found is to really tape all the edges. So you might get some twill tape which you, like, attach cat stitch to all your edges which fold because that really gives a crisp line. And I think that is what makes or breaks a blazer because there is this idea that the good bla-, good jacket, a good suit has to be with this three layer structure. But actually, no. The good suit is the suit which makes you feel awesome and fits you well.

Caroline: Of course, of course. Yeah. I wonder, I mean, it sounds like there’s so many elements that you can either do or not do based on your style and your preference, but are there any, like, what would you say are the essential components of a tailored jacket? For example, would you say canvassing is pretty much essential to a certain extent? Or, you know, the, uh, you had just mentioned the twill tape. That sounds pretty essential. Is there anything else?

Emilia: So yeah. Twill tape. Functioning vent on the sleeves. Sorry, this, this is my personal beef with, um, jacket patterns, which don’t, uh, don’t have functioning vents. I mean, even, I mean, nothing is really essential actually. Um, because even, even padding is, you know, really depends on you. I feel like the, the most essential part is, uh, something which fits you well. Yeah, that’s about it.

So don’t think that if you do something with not canvas, it’s going to be easier. Actually, it’s harder to fit and to sew something with no canvassing. So if you want to start with tailoring, start with full canvas. So don’t do, maybe don’t do the full, uh, three layers. Doing like one layer for something maybe a bit more, like, relaxed. But start with canvas or with fused, something with structure because, like, completely unstructured requires a great knowledge of fitting.

Helen: So is it the structure that comes from the canvas is what helps you to achieve a better fit when you’re using it.

Emilia: Yeah, because basically the canvas will correct anything, uh, like everything you want to hide or, like, you know, the canvas will help you conceal that. So actually there are even specific styles, so, like, for example, drape cut, that’s great if you have a chest you want to conceal because there is all this, kind of, extra fabric which is, kind of, integrated into the front jacket front and is just a style. And then, it looks like you’re completely flat underneath. So excellent for people like me.

Helen: Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I guess, like, it would help to hide any areas where there’s, like, lines happening because the fabric is draping onto the natural shape of our bodies. Um, and give you more structure there. That makes a lot of sense.

Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. It helps to create that illusion that we were talking about earlier, right? Can we talk about lining for a second? Like, do you line all of your tailored jackets and do you have a favorite lining fabric that you use?

Emilia: Oh, yes. Thank you for asking, because I really want to set the record straight here about linings. So I do line occasionally, I mean, generally, I do half lining. But then I’m going to start working on my winter suits and those will be fully lined. So, as for lining, you hear at first, do not use polyester. Do not absolutely under any circumstances use silk, unless you enjoy changing your lining every two years because silk breaks down with water and sweat, so you don’t want to use silk for your linings. That’s actually what was done in the old days. And then people had to go to their tailors to change the lining.

Instead, use cupro. Cupro is king. Or, like, I use Bemberg which is the proprietary brand from Asahi Kasei which is Japanese manufacturing, chemical manufacturer. And Bemberg is made of cotton linters. And, at least in the case of Asahi, they use a closed loop system, so they recycle everything. So, if, I mean, because otherwise cupro, as any rayon, can be very polluting, so check that. But then, uh, cupro has the advantages. I mean, it looks like silk and feels like silk, but it’s, uh, doesn’t break down with your sweat.

And the only issue is that it’s very difficult to work with because it’s very slippery. So what I do generally is I starch it a lot. I really starch it, starch it, starch it, so it becomes like a flat sheet, and so then I can cut it. But yeah, cupro.

Caroline: Mm, yeah, I love cupro, and it’s quite breathable to wear as well which is really nice, right?

Emilia: Yeah. So you can buy cupro specific for linings. So like, uh, if you live somewhere with a garment district or with some tailors, you can ask the tailors or people in the garment district where you can find this, or I’m sure online, you can find anything.

Caroline: Yeah. Bemberg is, is pretty readily available. I would say, I know we stock it at, at Blackbird in the fall/winter for coat making. So yeah, people should be able to find bemberg and cupro lining online as well. Ok, let’s touch on pants for a little bit. Cause I feel like we’ve been giving all the love to blazers, but you also make some really cool pants. Um, can you talk a little bit about maybe some of your favorite pants that you’ve made?

Emilia: Sure. So, well, one is self-drafted. Actually, we-, actually, it’s not entirely self-drafted. It was inspired by Calvin Klein model I saw, and then, I had, like, a pants block, which was flat front, and I took that and I made it into two pleats, as one does. So I like pleats. I don’t like flat fronts, so all my pants are pleated.

And then barring that? So there was one pattern I really liked, but, um, I don’t want to support that particular pattern maker anymore, but because it, which is a shame because the pattern was so great because it is, kind of, like, vintage-y silhouette like, high waist, double pleats, and really just right but not the norm.

So I’m sorry I can’t recommend specific patterns. But if you enjoy two pleated trousers now, they’re kind of popular. Finally. They deserve the popularity. So there are many patterns available, and as with jackets, uh, find a pattern. My advice for everybody is find a pattern you like, and then just experiment with it and make it so it’s perfect. So you can just, that’s what I do, I just make, like, a couple of patterns, and then I reuse them a lot.

Yeah. And also if you, I mean, you can also mix and match. Look like if you have a pants pattern, you really like, and you want to have a jacket to go with it. Not all jackets will look good with all pants and vice versa. So experiment a bit and see what silhouette goes well with that of the pants.

Caroline: Of course. And how do you decide whether you’re going to make, like, a full suit or, sort of, a standalone pair of pants or blazer?

Emilia: Depends on need. So actually I really got full-on on suit, on making suits recently because I started working, so I had great hopes. But actually, my, I work for a startup, guys, so very cas, very cas. So I’m the only one in a suit, let alone a tie. So, like, now I’m just making suits. And then it depends a bit on need. So sometimes I feel like there is a gap in my wardrobe, which is uh, I don’t know, I need more stand-alone or trousers, right?

So I make a pair of trousers or sometimes, really, for example, I made a white blazer because it’s very hot in Japan. And you know, if you wear all black, uh, not recommended to avoid heat stroke. Also, in the case, it’s, you know, it was need dependent because I try to keep my closet to, like, a minimum. So I try not to, because sometimes I would like, just like to make things because it’s my hobby and I enjoy it, but I try to not do that otherwise the closet, which is very tiny, would explode.

Caroline: Yeah. Tiny closet problems. I get that.

Emilia: And also my spouse also wears suits only. So we, uh, there is like, you know, the battle for who has space in the closet to put the suits. I said, no, but I was here first. It’s my space. We decided, but the left is for you and the right is for me. Why are you in the right now? That’s my space. Yeah.

Helen: And do you make things for them as well?

Emilia: No. I mean only casual stuff because my spouse is, kind of, like, picky. So it’s like, oh, I want the sleeve at one centimeter shorter. And, uh, and the back a little bit more fitted and the collar, I don’t really like the shape. And I’m like, make it yourself. Um, no.

Helen: This is why they have their own tailor.

Emilia: But for casual stuff, I like to make us matching things, so we have, like, house, uh, not house, but, like, things we were inside, but we can wear also outside because are presentable and not pajamas. And I made us matching ones. Or some shirts, like casual shirts with, like, a spread in. In Japan they are called Aloha shirts. So, like Hawaiian style.

Helen: Mm, yeah.

Emilia: So I made us matching ones in the same fabric. So, but that’s the extent I ma-, I made them pants as well, but that’s the extent.

Helen: Yeah. We actually wanted to touch a bit on your shirt making adventure series on your blog. Um, and one thing that really intrigued us was that you set in your sleeves using only one pin.

Emilia: That’s the only method of setting the sleeve.

Helen: How does that work? How is it possible?

Emilia: Actually, so, you know, I’ve tried five or six methods to set in your sleeve, and I ended up using this one because it’s just the least mendokusai, as we say in Japanese, the least bothersome. But I just love mendokusai. It sounds so good. But it works very well because, so basically the final effect is the same as you’re setting it in the round. So, like, the ease is very well distributed, thanks to the fact that you use only one, one pin because when you move your layers synchronously as you go, so that distributes very well, the ease, and it’s only one pin, and it’s done on, already, you do it on the flat, which is easier.

Helen: Right.

Emilia: And then you only use one pin and it, now, yeah, it’s the only way. So the only thing I have to say which I didn’t, I made a tutorial, and illusory tutorial, and the only thing I regret I did not include is that when you want them to topstitch your armscye, you should really gather it a bit. So what I do is I do some long stitches and then I pull them and I do a little bit of gathering because that’s all curved in the end. So it helps with, if you gather it, it helps, uh, making it really lie flat and nicer. But yeah, that is the only way to do it. Period.

Helen: Well, we’ll link up your tutorial, but just for a visual, the one pin goes at the shoulder, right? At the very top?

Emilia: It basically connects the center of your sleeve and the center, to the center of your armscye. So yeah, since they’re at the top of the shoulder.

Caroline: And do you start sewing from the center out or are you starting from…?

Emilia: Correct.

Caroline: Okay.

Emilia: So you start from the center out and you move towards the side seam and then you flip it and you do the other side.

Helen: One side at a time.

Emilia: Yes. You do one side at a time.

Helen: Yeah, very cool. I love it.

Caroline: With shirt making, there are so many different collar styles and I wonder, like, how do you figure out what collar styles you like best?

Emilia: So, as with everything in tailoring, it’s all about the visual balance, right? So, you have to take into account the geometry of your face. And just, you know, I started with, I really did trial and error because I’m a scientist, so I took it very methodically. And I was like, okay, I will print out, make a bunch of patterns, and try all of them. And then, you know, you look at the mirror and you see, oh, this makes me feel this way or that way.

I mean, there are some, kind of, finger quote rules. So if you have a long face, you should wear this collar. If you have a square face, you should wear that. I’m like, whatever. Maybe use that to start but then just try different styles and see what, what fits you best. So the only thing I have to say that if you’re planning to wear your shirt with a tie, this is actually a pet peeve of mine.

If you’re planning to wear your shirt with a tie, the collar has to be quite snug, very snug, actually. So you should be able to only fit, like, a finger inside. So it should not be suffocating, obviously, but quite snug. Otherwise, the effect is just not visually pleasing. I mean, it conveys a very seventies vibe, which, you know, may be your thing, but generally speaking, you would like to avoid that. So actually more than the collar, finding the correct size of collar is very important.

Caroline: What are your best shirt making tips? Do you have any other tips for our listeners?

Emilia: Length of sleeves, also very important. So always check, so if you’re planning to wear a jacket on top, check, uh, the length of the sleeve of your jacket because it’s traditionally, the sleeve of your shirt should stick out a little bit. So maybe, like, a centimeter or so, but I like to show a lot, so mine is, like, two or three. Typically, you should show a little bit. So take that into account if you’re making, if you’re making a suit and you want to have a shirt to go with the suit.

Also, in this case patience. Oh yes. And get, so I think I will probably most likely do some tutorials on how to set in collars. Don’t be flat because. Try not to get flustered by the collar because it’s a bit tricky to set in the collar and the collar stand and get a felling foot. So actually my machine maker, they don’t make them, but they’re generally readily available. And that really helps a lot with flat felling the side seams.

Actually, it has been revolutionary cause otherwise it’s a lot of steps, and it’s overwhelming. Whereas with a felling foot, it’s, like, two steps, and that’s it. And burrito method, burrito method for the win.

Helen: Yes. Love the burrito.

Caroline: We’re big fans.

Helen: Does the felling foot, I’m assuming you still have to trim down one side or does it do that?

Emilia: No, the felling basically you, you stitch them together at the beginning with an offset. So the part which fells on top, it’s already longer, the similar allowance, so this should be reflected on your pattern pieces. So, generally, you do the top, the front of the shirt is going to be felling on top of the back. So then your pattern piece of the front would have a slightly wider seam allowance. And so that’s, that part is longer and you stitch them together and then you, the flat felling, the flat fooled, no felling foot, uh, such a difficult term, then folds everything, kind of, similarly to, um, of the baby hem (speaking Japanese) that’s in Japanese, similar to the baby hem but slightly different, but that’s a similar concept. It will fold the, your longer seam allowance on top of the shorter one.

Helen: Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I have to get my hands on one of these feet. I’m curious, too, if you do much hand sewing when you’re doing all of these tailored garments. Do you use a lot of hand sewing?

Emilia: Yes. So actually, another thing I want to clarify is cause there is a lot of, like, snobbism around tailoring and which is really unnecessary. I’m full of, I’m very opinionated, I’m sorry, but basically you don’t have to hand sew anything if you don’t want. So it’s not, like, bespoke. It doesn’t mean hand sewn. Bespoke means it fits you correct. It fits you well, and it’s made to your own specifications. It’s custom made for you. The pattern doesn’t exist anywhere else. That’s bespoke. You can have bespoke all done by machine.

So on the same vein, you can make, I mean, I find personally that some things are easier and more precise by hand, but if you can do them by machine, do them by machine ‘cause it’s very presumption and ableist to think that you should sew all this stuff by hand, maybe you can, maybe you have arthrosis and you can’t hand sew. So, having said that, I do a lot of hand sewing because I can, and I enjoy it, and I can do it on the sofa drinking bourbon, the superior form of whiskey. So, and while chatting with my spouse, and I think for jackets, maybe 80% is hand sewn, but for pants, maybe only 20, I only do the hem and the waistband by hand, and everything else is machined because it’s, you know, straight seams.

So but for, for jackets, I find it actually more convenient in, to some extent to hand sew, and especially with buttonholes and, I mean, besides the pat stitching, et cetera. So which, you know, if you fuse, you don’t even have to do that, you can just fuse everything. Um, so not pat stitching. If you are then going the completely hand sewn route, uh, yeah, there is supposed pat stitching. And when you may do the buttonholes by hand. What I do recommend doing though, which I think really makes a difference, is setting in the sleeve by hand. I think that really helps.

Helen: Yeah, it’s such a tricky area with those contrasting curves and the collar as well. You could get out your hand sewing needle and at least baste it together beforehand, then it’s a lot less stressful when you hit the machine.

Emilia: Yeah. So don’t pin, at least baste. And uh, if you use shoulder pads, so actually there is, I want to plug a book here. So there is this book series by Cabrera and somebody else. Unfortunately, it comes in two volumes. One for women’s wear and one for men’s wear, which escapes me because the books are absolutely identical. The only difference is that the women’s wear one has skirts and no vests. And so that’s the only, and maybe slightly more fitting tips for the bust area. But, you know, I think even some AMA people may need that. So, um, like if, if, if the publisher of this book is listening, please merge them. It’s ridiculous. The only, the only reason why they’re separating them is so that you can sell more books. Yeah.

Caroline: I love your faith in the fact that the publisher might be listening to our podcast.

Emilia: Yeah, I’m manifesting it.

Caroline: Amazing.

Emilia: I am manifesting this. So, but this book is very insightful and, um, has, uh, kind of, many tricks on how to set in different areas, including the sleeves and teaches you, like, what you should remove. Like, yeah. Is there, is there in several, it’s very, I mean, there are many steps for setting in the sleeve and try not to pin. Try to baste by hand and then you can hit your machine.

Helen: And what is the book called?

Emilia: So it’s Tailoring Techniques. Actually, I, it’s on my blog.

Helen: Okay. That’s alright. We’ll find it.

Emilia: I’m just like the Cabrera, like, everybody, um, actually, yeah, that’s a thing you need. You need that. I mean, if you want to, you can use that. And also I would say a good pattern cutting book is also a good thing to have because understanding how the pattern is constructed helps you a lot when you have to do fitting adjustments. This is my hot tip.

Caroline: Those are, those are really great tips. And what we’ll find that book in and link it in the show notes for sure. You mentioned buttonholes, hand sewing buttonholes, and I want to learn a little bit more about that. Like, how do you feel about a hand worked buttonhole versus machine stitched? What are the pros and cons there?

Emilia: I mean, both have their, their places. I’m not a purist, but now of course there are buttonholes you should always do by hand. Now, I mean, whatever. Like, I personally enjoy making handworked buttonholes but doesn’t mean that they’re superior. And also actually, you may argue that the, in some cases they’re too much because even in buttonholes there are different schools and, uh, and I will have a, on my Instagram, some posts about, like, the different types.

Because typically we think of buttonhole thread, right? And gimp? But no, you can also use no gimp or use the buttonhole thread as a gimp and finer stitch and that gives a much softer buttonhole which goes better with certain soft fabrics. So you would argue, instead of spending one hour doing that, you could just do it by machine instead of doing the buttonhole with gimp which becomes very rigid. So as with everything in tailoring, it’s, you know, everything has its uses.

Caroline: Can you explain quickly to our listeners what the gimp is?

Emilia: So the gimp is this mythical creature which is not being produced anymore so it’s very hard to find, and it’s, kind of, like a thick thread generally made with, at least in Japan, we can find it made in linen. And basically, you use it as a core for a buttonhole. When you make a buttonhole by hand you cut first. You cut it, and then you do some little overcast to, you know, keep it from fraying. And then you do this buttonhole stitches which, kind of, look like blanket stitches, but they’re a bit different because the direction of thread is different and yada yada, and in between you sandwich this gimp, this thick thread, and that creates this effect of this buttonhole being very raised, very prominent, uh, and, and also made because the buttonhole stitch, uh, is quite thick and the buttonhole thread is also quite thick, it makes the entire process relatively fast. I mean, not very fast, but relatively fast as opposed to using no gimp, where you have to stitch a lot more. That’s what Neapolitan tailor’s do. So Neapolitan tailors do, like, no gimp or use the same thread they use for the buttonhole for a gimp, and it’s a finer thread.

So the buttonholes are tiny, and they look a bit messy. So people are like, oh, but this doesn’t look very good as compared to the buttonhole with gimp. But actually, it’s just a different style, and it’s a completely different buttonhole. So these are on my Instagram, too, because this post tailor, Chiro. Hi, Chiro! So I call him Chiro by his Japanese, but he started in Naples. So speaks Italian fluently. Ah, so I’m like, hi, if you’re listening. So he, he loves all this little details. So I had a full array of different buttonholes, and we spent, like, half an hour discussing buttonholes.

Caroline: And when you’re hand working a button hole, we’re not just using all-purpose thread, right? There’s a specific type of buttonhole thread?

Emilia: Yes. There’s a specific type of buttonhole thread which is in silk, and it’s in a Z direction instead of S direction unlike all other hand sewing threads. Oh wait, maybe we should talk about this. So thread has a direction of twist. So machine thread has a Z direction of twist which helps with the, well, the way the machine is constructed and the stitches produced. Whereas hand sewing thread has S direction., so opposite direction.

So which is why you should not use, um, you can’t use them interchangeably. And especially if you try to hand sew with machine thread, it’s going to be a disaster, I mean, not going to be a disaster, but you may encounter problems depending on the stitch you do. People who embroider know this very well. And I came to know in this from embroidery, actually myself. So but buttonhole thread, that is a Z direction.

And that means that then when you do the buttonhole stitch, you have to do it counter-clockwise, I think. Where you go from, normally you would do from, from right to left. In this case, you have to do from left to right. It makes no sense like this, but once you start doing the stitch, you’re like, ah, yeah, makes sense.

Caroline: Okay. Yeah. This is so much information. So I’ll definitely be directing our listeners to your blog and your Instagram to get some visuals on this, but thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. It’s, it’s so cool to hear from you and your experience. I want to ask you about tools because I feel like you must have some pretty interesting sewing tools. And do you have any favorites or any special tools that you feel like is, are needed for tailoring garments?

Emilia: Uh, so a good ironing board, I mean, as big as you can have. That helps a lot. And, uh, I think a clapper, so I didn’t have a clapper for the longest time. And then my spouse made one, and I think the clapper is revolutionary. So I recommend the clapper because for all those, you want all those folds to be very crisp. So you steam them and then you put the clapper on top of it. Really helps.

And then I think also a ham helps, uh, with, um, curved edges, like, armscyes and those things. And then a good set of hand sewing needles also, also in, kind of, different lengths and different thicknesses, which, I mean, because ideally you should match it with your thread then, you know, one does what they can. But yeah, that’s about it actually. You don’t need, yeah, anything, but you don’t need a lot of equipment to start tailoring. Actually, even, like, instead of a clapper, you can use a cutting board. Like, if you have a small cutting board in hardwood that’s works, too.

Helen: Perfect.

Emilia: Yeah. Or, like, a, sort of, hams, you can make your own ham and, uh, or you can use something else around which can take steam. I don’t know, like a pillow or, the problem is very, it’s not going to be very stiff. So because you want them to have some resistance and the ham provides that.

Helen: Yeah. It sounds like an emphasis on pressing tools to help you get those pieces nice. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And how do you launder your finished pieces? Are you getting all of these things dry cleaned?

Emilia: I don’t wash them. You don’t have to, again another thing, so actually, so if you’re making it in wool, you really don’t need to wash it. What you need to do is for after wear, you need to brush it. Brush it thoroughly. Get in some nice hard brush, and then you hang it out of the sun, obviously. So it can aerate a little bit, but, I mean, you can spot clean. And, uh, while I have successfully washed pants in water, you have to remember that wa-, water, any washing, even dry cleaning changes the color with time. So you should always dry clean everything together. So jacket and pants, not just pants or just jacket.

Helen: Oh, that’s a good tip.

Emilia: Um, and don’t wash in water things which have a lot of iron work. So your jacket, ideally, you don’t want to wash it in water. So just don’t. And maybe when, what I do is that every few years, two or three years, I dry clean suit. Yeah, because…

Helen: That’s blowing my mind.

Emilia: So like, I think I have not dry cleaned any single one of them. I’m going to send for dry cleaning in October, maybe, summer suits I’ve made, like, two years ago for the first time. The issue is also that it’s more important to learn to press your suits yourself because oftentimes the dry cleaners, unless they’re specialized in suits, they will not know how to press it, and they will press it in the presser which is how they do in dry cleaners. They have, like, a machine which presses everything, and they would flatten your lapel roll. And you imagine you spend all these hours doing the puss stitching to get the magnificent curvaceous, very sexy lapel roll to have it been all flat.

So it’s also the issue and this things are expensive, so, and I always advocate for learning to press it yourself. So if maybe it’s not dirty, but you could use a press and if you learn to press it yourself, and there are many, uh, tutorials online, actually for, I advise people to follow, I’m sorry for this term, men’s, men’s wear bloggers, especially the ones dedicated to tailoring.

You will cringe. Let me tell you. Some are really cringe worthy of these people, but occasionally, they do have good tips, and there was one where the entire guide on how to press well your suit yourself. So that’s good to know. So, um, yeah. And then just brush and spot clean. Avoid washing when pos-. Yeah.

Helen: It’s certainly taking the pressure off. If I’m like, what’s involved with laundering these amazing pieces? And you say just don’t wash them. Like great, perfect.

Emilia: So, like, I have odd trousers, so trousers which don’t have a matching jacket. I sometimes wash in water which means I make a bucket of cold water with castille soap. I dip the pants. I wait 10 seconds. I removed the pants and then I, kind of, like, twist it a little bit, not too much, to remove the excess water. And then I, it, because they’re wool, right? So you don’t want to agitate or anything. And then I roll them up in a towel and then yeah, and I let them dry. And then I press them.

Caroline: That’s a great method. If we, if we do end up having to wash anything. But, um, I, I like the sentiment of, of not having to, as well.

Emilia: Yeah. Actually, if my, if my mother hears me saying this, uh, she will be appalled because my mother is like, never wash any wool in water ever. So she’s… Yeah, because when she was growing up, but I mean, now wools are treated so they don’t shrink like 50%, but when she was growing up, that was the case. There was massive shrinkage. So I feel she’s scarred for life, and like, never wish any wool. Out of the, out of the bathroom, out of my sight. Never wear it, if it’s raining,

Helen: But it’s always raining where we live.

Emilia: Also, also where she lives. So, like, the place we’re from, I mean, we’re not from there, but my family ended up there for reasons. It’s also raining a lot, and it’s really mountainous. Hence, all the manufacturing cause it’s, like, a good place for that.

Helen: Right.

Caroline: What do you want to do in the future? Kind of, what’s coming up for you? Do you want to go deeper into tailoring and degendering fashion? Or are there other directions that you’re interested in taking with your sewing journey?

Emilia: So, well, I want to write more about, I mean, I want to continue the Tailoring for Them because I feel like, you know, you will never exhaust the amount of things you can cover in tailoring because and actually on that I would really like to know what people want to hear from me. Cause I’m thinking of starting a Patreon with, you know, more content. So if people can reach out, if people are really interested in some specific aspect, please do reach out.

And then I’m also moving my blog to a slightly different direction already. I’ve started, like, this May to use sewing just as a pretext to make a blog post about something else and generally, in the political slash social justice sphere. Because I think that it’s, kind of, a bit of a need, I mean, I don’t know. Sewing is nice, and I love it. And I like the fact that sometimes it’s very escap-, is purely escapism. But for me personally, that’s not enough. I need to also, you know, have my thoughts provoked, so, kind of, merging my two passions, politics and sewing together, is where I want to take my blog. And then we will see. So, you know, it would be more politics and less outfits, I guess.

Helen: Well, that sounds pretty exciting. I really look forward to reading your work and your Patreon sounds cool, too. How can our listeners support you right now if they want to find you online or is there a way that they can support your work at the moment?

Emilia: So I have a coffee and, um, so you can support me or buy me a coffee. Coffee. But then the only thing I can say in the Brooklyn accent, a coffee, um, and then if you cannot support me economic, financially, then you can take my stuff and share it. Of course, always credit me, but, you know, share it, talk about it with friends but also helps and, uh, I mean, I’m only one person.

And if my content, if you find my content useful or insightful or thought provoking, then please share it and use it as a starting point for discussion cause that’s the only way we can actually impart any change. Otherwise, it’s just me screaming into the void.

Helen: That’s a great point. And what is the website so people can go find you?

Emilia: So I’m emiliatonuno.blog which is like a, like my blog, and there, there is, there are all the links to, to support me basically everywhere. You will not miss it. It’s like on the, on the first page, on every blog post. Yeah, you will not miss it. Or if you look on coffee also, it’s linked on my, I have a link in bio. It’s also linked there. And, or if you go on the coffee directory and you type emiliatonuno, you will find me there, too. Yeah. Plenty of ways.

Caroline: Fabulous. And speaking of links, obviously we’ll be linking all of this up in the show notes, including your coffee or coffee, all the ways that our listeners can support you. Thank you so much for chatting with us today, Emilia. I know I really, really loved this conversation, and I learned a lot, so thank you.

Helen: Yeah, same here.

Emilia: Thank you for having me.

Helen: It was wonderful.

Caroline: Awesome. Well, you take care.

Emilia; Yeah, you too.

Helen: Bye.

Caroline: Bye.

That’s it for today’s episode of Love to Sew. You can find me Caroline at blackbirdfabrics.com and Helen at helensclosetpatterns.com. And we’re recording today in beautiful British Columbia, Canada.

Helen: Go to lovetosewpodcast.com to find our show notes. They’re filled with links and pictures from this episode. And if you’d like to get in touch with us, you can send us an email at hello@lovetosewpodcast.com.

Caroline: If you love Love to Sew and you want more, you can support us on Patreon. For $5 a month, you will get a full length bonus episode and weekly behind the scenes pics. For $10 a month, you get all that plus a mini episode focused on sewing techniques and 15% discount codes for both of our stores, Helen’s Closet and Blackbird Fabrics. Patreon is the best way to support us so that we can keep making quality sewing content. Go to patreon.com/lovetosew for more info.

Helen: Thanks to our amazing podcast team. Lisa Ruiz is our creative assistant. Jordan Moore is our editor. And Margaret Wakelee is our transcriber. And thank you so much for listening. We will talk to you next week.

Caroline: Bye

Helen: Buh-bye..

Caroline: Ciao.

Helen: Nope. Take it out, please.

Caroline: Pretend that didn’t happen.

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