Gretchen Rubin joins us to talk about her Four Tendencies framework and how it relates to our creative hobbies. We talk about knowing yourself better, finding accountability, facing your fears, and how colour can influence our everyday lives. Gretchen is a happiness expert and she gives us loads of tips on how to be happy and productive in our sewing practice.
The transcript for this episode can be found on this page at the end of the show notes.
- Follow Gretchen!
- Happier Podcast
- Website: Gretchen Rubin
- Blog: Gretchen Rubin
- Facebook: @GretchenRubin
- Instagram: @gretchenrubin
- Twitter:@gretchenrubin
- The Four Tendencies Quiz
- Gretchen’s Books:
- The Four Tendencies resources
- Tendency Overlap
- Does Obliger-Rebellion Ever Take the Form of Physical Symptoms?
- Quiz: Are You an Over-Buyer or an Under-Buyer?
Transcript:
This transcript was created from the Love to Sew re-release version of this episode, released on July 27, 2021. You can listen to this version on the player below:
Caroline: We are recording today on the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territories of the Coast Salish and Kwakwaka’wakw peoples, including Tsleil-Waututh, Squamish, Musqueam, and K’ómoks first nations. Hello, Love to Sew listener. We’re currently in our podcast off season. So we’re taking a little break from recording right now.
Helen: This summer, we’re excited to revisit some of our favorite episodes from years past. We hope you will love these reruns as much as we do. Remember, you can still access the show notes by going to lovetosewpodcast.com and searching for the episode. If you want more Love to Sew, head over to our Patreon. We have a lot of fun over there, and we appreciate our Patreon fam so, so much.
Caroline: For $5 U.S. per month, you’ll get access to our monthly bonus episode. Our Patreon episodes really feel like a catch-up with friends. This is where we share what we’ve been up to in our personal lives, our businesses, what we’re sewing, and things we’re loving like recipes, podcasts, TV shows, board games, and more. Throughout the month, we also share behind the scenes photos.
I recently gave our patrons a sneak peek of some of our upcoming exclusive Blackbird releases, and Helen you’ve given sneak peaks of patterns too, right?
Helen: Yes, it is top secret stuff just for our Patreon supporters. And if you join at $10 U.S. per month, you will get 15% off discount codes for Blackbird Fabrics, Helen’s Closet, and our Love to Sew swag shop. And this code can be reused again and again, so it’s a great deal, especially if you shop with us frequently. Plus, you’ll get a bonus mini-sode where we answer a patron question or cover a specific sewing topic. So you can learn more and sign up to support us at patreon.com/lovetosew.
Caroline: And don’t worry folks, we’ll be back in September 2021 with a fabulous new season of Love to Sew. Now let’s get to this Love to Sew favorite.
Helen: Hello, and welcome. I’m Helen.
Caroline: And I’m Caroline.
Helen: And we love to sew. This is a podcast for makers where we talk about sewing a handmade wardrobe and bring you interviews with inspiring creatives and small business owners in our community.
Caroline: Today, we are chatting with Gretchen Rubin, co-host of the podcast, Happier, New York Times bestselling author, and the creator of the Four Tendencies framework.
Gretchen has made it her life’s work to explore happiness, habits, and human nature. We talk about how knowing yourself better can make us happier in our daily lives and creative pursuits.
Helen: You all took the quiz, right? You gotta take the quiz.
Caroline: Take the quiz. Where can they take the quiz?
Helen: quiz.gretchenrubin.com
Caroline: Go do it! Press pause. Take the quiz. And come back.
Hello, Gretchen, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Gretchen: I’m so happy to be talking to you.
Caroline: We’re really happy, too. We talk about you and your podcast, Happier, on the show all the time. And we both really look up to you and your sister, Liz. So it is a true honor to have you here on the show.
Gretchen: Aw, well, thanks. I’m so, I’m so happy to be joining the conversation.
Caroline: Awesome. So for those out there that may not know you, can you introduce yourself to our listeners?
Gretchen: My name is Gretchen Rubin, and I’m a writer who lives in New York City. I’m originally from Kansas City, Missouri. I’m best known for my book, The Happiness Project, and, sort of, the books that I’ve written since then that are all about, kind of, happiness habits and human nature which are The Happiness Project, Happier at Home, uh, Better Than Before, which is all about habit change, and The Four Tendencies, which is about a personality profile I developed.
I’ve a book coming out in the spring called Outer Order, Inner Calm. It’s just, like, a fun little book. It’s, like, a pump up book if you’re trying to get pumped up to clear clutter cause I’m very interested in why is it that when we get stuck, control over the stuff of our lives, we feel more in control of our lives, generally, which, kind of, to an irrational degree it seems to me.
I also have a podcast, as you mentioned, called Happier with Gretchen Rubin, which I do with my sister, um, Elizabeth Craft, who is a showrunner in, uh, Hollywood. Um, so she, we talked about how to be happier from our different perspectives, and I have a website, and I’m all over social media and, um, all that. So that’s, that’s who I am.
Helen: You do so much for people out there, encouraging them to know themselves better and to be happier. And I think it’s just amazing all of the different subjects you’ve delved into, and you’ve affected me in my personal life as well. So thank you for that.
Gretchen: Oh, well, that’s so nice to hear.
Helen: So our podcast is sewing-themed, and we thought we would want to ask you if you have a history of sewing or a personal connection with sewing in any way?
Gretchen: I don’t myself. So I’m, like, one of these super, like, uncoor-, like, uncoordinated. Like, I can’t, like, I tried, like, crazy to needlepoint and stuff like that, but one of my closest friends is super, like, she can sew things she’s, like, um, she can sew things overnight.
She can just, like, whip something up. She makes these insane Halloween costumes. Um, so I’m very envious, and I have a closeup view of, like, what a real sewing person looks like. And I’m, I, I’m, I very much envy it, but I feel like I get to, like, take some pleasure in it just from watching her.
Helen: Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. So maybe you’ll have some insight, through your relationship with her, about some of the topics that we’re going to talk about today.
Gretchen: Yeah.
Caroline: So we wanted to chat with you about your Four Tendencies framework, specifically the relationship between our Tendency and our creative practice. Um, but to start us off, do you mind giving us a little introduction of the Four Tendencies?
Gretchen: Yes. So the Four Tendencies is a personality framework that I came up with. It came out of my study of habits and how people successfully changed habits, but it’s actually much bigger than habits. It’s a more pervasive aspect. Um, and it’s whether you are an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel.
And I will give a brief description, and for most people, the brief description is all they need. There is a quiz. If you go to quiz.gretchenrubin.com, there’s a free quiz. I think 1.7 million people have taken it now, but you, but a lot of people don’t need to take the quiz. They can just tell from what I’m going to say.
So it has to do with how you respond to expectations. And we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations, things like a work deadline, a request from a friend. And then there are inner expectations, my own desire to keep a new year’s resolution, my own desire to spend an hour quilting. And depending on how we respond to outer and inner expectations, that’s what determines our Tendency.
So upholder, the first tendency, they readily meet outer and inner expectations. So they meet the work deadline. They keep the new year’s resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important.
Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They’ll do things if they think they make sense. So they’re making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their inner standard, they’ll do it no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back, and they tend to resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, irrational. They always want to know why.
Uh, then there are obligers. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And I got my insight into this, for the first time, when a friend said to me, I don’t understand it. When I was in the high school, I was on the track team, and I never missed track practice. So why can’t I go running now? And I thought, well, why not? And it’s like, okay, well, when she had a team and a coach expecting her to show up, she had no problem going, but when she’s just trying to go on her own, make time for herself, she struggled.
And then finally there are rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they’re very likely to resist. And typically they, they won’t tell themselves what to do. Like they wouldn’t take a 10:00 AM Saturday sewing class because they don’t know what they’re going to want to do at 10:00 AM on Saturday. And the mere fact that someone’s expecting them to show up would just annoy them. So those are the Four Tendencies.
Helen: I mean, they’re so interesting and I especially love, not only knowing your own tendency but, knowing the tendencies of those around you can really change the way that you approach your life and appreciate other people’s personalities a bit more and just understand where they’re coming from.
Gretchen: I a hundred percent agree. So I’m an upholder. So they, they’re, they’re not equally distributed. So obliger is the biggest Tendency for both men and women. You either are an obliger, or you have many obligers in your life. Next after that is questioner. Rebel is the smallest tendency. It’s a very conspicuous Tendency, but it’s very small.
And in my Tendency, upholder Tendency is just a little bit bigger. So those are, kind of, the polar extreme tendencies. And once I understood why I, like, how upholders approach things and how that was different than most everybody else, it was just like, I just got along with people so much better. I had a lot less frustration and, like, a lot less bafflement because I’d be like, what’s the big deal. And now I’m like, oh, I see this is a questioner or, oh, I see this is an obliger. So I think you’re right. It really can help you manage yourself and understand yourself, but then it can also, kind of, explain other people in a way that’s really useful.
Helen: Yeah, and we’ve prompted our listeners, uh, in an episode previous to go and take the quiz so we…
Gretchen: Great!
Helen: …hope they’re all prepped.
Gretchen: Yes! Good! Know your Tendency!
Helen: Yes, um, but we would love to hear, sort of, your experience interacting with artists and creatives, specifically through the lens of their Tendencies.
Gretchen: Well, it’s interesting because a lot of people, with the rebel Tendency, a lot of people are like, oh, all great artists are rebels. And then some people are like, ooh, all narcissists are rebels. And I’m like, no, it doesn’t work like that because your Tendency only tells one narrow part of your personality. Um, like, it doesn’t tell you how creative you are or how analytical you are or how curious you are or how extroverted you are, anything like that. It just tells you how you respond to expectations.
But that said, your Tendency comes out a lot in something like creative production. So let’s say if you’re a rebel and you want to do creative things, you want to, you don’t want to, like, try to lock yourself into a schedule or commit in advance. What you want to do is, you’re, like, you know what? I’m a creative person. And I want to show the world what’s in my mind. Like, I can’t wait to, like, use these new materials and show people, like, how I can come up with these beautiful combinations. It’s all about my identity. It’s what I want. I want to show my identity. I want to show what I can do. I want to do the thing that I love, which is to create.
Where someone like an upholder, like me might say something like, I need to make time for this in my life every day. I’m going to settle, set aside ninety minutes, you know, between nine and noon every single day to work on this project. And for an upholder, that would be very satisfying because it’s, like, I know I’m going to make time for it. It’s on the calendar. I feel the satisfaction of executing.
And you know, sometimes people think upholders sound very rigid, um, and they can be rigid, but, like, I feel, I feel, like, I’m a creative person, and I feel, like, you know what, my ri-, my rigidity, um, helps that. Like, my motto is: discipline is my freedom. And so I feel, like, by being so consistent, that’s what allows me to be creative, but that doesn’t work for everyone.
Now obligers, now they suffer sometimes if they’re trying to do creative things, if it’s seen as inner. If they think of it like, I have my day job, and then I have my fun hobby that I do, or I have my beautiful project that I’m doing for myself. Well, that can always, that could really get slighted.
And a lot of times obligers get very frustrated because they’re like, why is it that I’m always meeting everybody else’s expectations, but then I have all these big plans for what I want to do, and that never happens. So what is the answer? What do you do if you’re an obliger like that? And you have, like, this project that you love, and yet, somehow it never gets attention.
The solution is to create outer accountability for that. So it’s, like, if you want to read more, join a book group. If you, you know, and, and, and you just, whether you take a class where you have to, like, prepare and, and, and, and show your work at every class. Um, if you form a group where everybody’s like, we’re, we’re all committing to work, and if you don’t do, if you blow it off, you’re gonna encourage other people not to take it seriously. So you have to do it for them.
I have this app, the Better app, where people can go on and, sort of, form groups to create accountability if they want, or they can just ask questions and stuff. You could, uh, think of your duty to be a role model for someone else. I want to show somebody else. You could be a teacher. I need to teach people. I’m going to have students. I’m going to have clients. I’m going to have customers. So I have to deliver for them. Uh, you can think of your duty to your future self. Well, Gretchen Right Now doesn’t feel, feels like this is at the bottom of the list, but Future Gretchen, at the end of 2018, is going to be so disappointed if she hasn’t made progress.
You can think of, um, you know, it’s just this idea of having outer accountability for whatever it is that you’re doing. Some obligers can even, like, have outer accountability to things like their own schedule or, like, the project itself. Um, some, obligers vary tremendously in what they feel accountable to.So if you’re an obliger, you’re dealing with an obliger, you, sort of, have to experiment to find out what works.
And then for questioners, it’s, like, for them, it’s all inner, it’s all the wise. Like, do I want to do this? Oh, I do want to do this, and it’s most efficient for me to do this on Saturday mornings. Or it’s most efficient for me to do this a little bit each day or whatever. And for, and they love to customize, they like to come up with their own plans, but once they’ve figured that out, they’re pretty good at just sticking to it.
So that’s some of the ways that I’ve seen it, the Tendencies influence how people make time to pursue creative things, which of course is hugely important. If you want to be creative, you have to have time to cultivate it.
Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. We completely agree with that. And Helen and I are actually both obligers…
Gretchen: Okay.
Caroline: …and we do a lot of things to, sort of, help us to dedicate time to our creative practices. So we take classes together, and we have days where we meet up and sew with friends, so that, sort of, forces us to do it on a regular basis when things get busy and stuff.
And I was just thinking, while you were talking about obligers and that outer accountability, like, we started this podcast together and in a way, like, we’re releasing weekly episodes and it, sort of, forced us to stay on top of things that are happening in the sewing world and, kind of, just keep dedicated to this practice, sort of, on a weekly basis through the podcast. So I think it’s, it really does help to know your Tendency, um, and know yourself better so that you can really, sort of, build your life around that and make sure that you’re giving yourself an opportunity to pursue the things that you want to pursue in that way.
Gretchen: That’s absolutely true. And what you see with people, like obligers, that often, they will intuitively understand that they do better when they have accountability, and they will, kind of, get to it without consciously realizing that that’s why certain things work, but something like having a podcast, having a blog, um, making dates with friends, joining, joining groups, like, those are great cause they create that accountability.
But the problem is, I think, for a lot of obligers, I, it’s weird because on the one hand, I think, like, in culture, we’re very aware of how helpful accountability can be. And there’s many, many, many ways to get accountability because people get it. But on the other hand, obligers, I mean, I mean, upholders, questioners, and rebels will often say to obligers things like, you need to make time for yourself. You need to get clear on what you want. If this is important for you, you’ll do it. Um, if you didn’t want to do that, why did you say you would do that?
And it’s, like, okay, that’s bad for obligers cause that’s not how they, they need outer accountability. So telling them, like, you need to learn how to put yourself first, that doesn’t work for an obliger unless there’s some kind of scaffolding of outer accountability. So I think sometimes we get in each other’s way because we give each other the advice that would work for us. We don’t recognize how somebody else might need to take a different approach. Whereas you’re, kind of, left to your own devices, maybe you figure it out for yourself. Like, you know what, I’m not going to do this. If I don’t figure out a way to hold myself accountable for it.
Caroline: I actually had a question that you might find controversial…
Gretchen: Ooh!
Caroline: …but, Helen is an obliger, but I feel like she has a little bit of an upholder streak. And, um, I know that generally you, sort of, feel like we are the one Tendency. But do you think that in creative practices you might have, like, a little bit of a streak of a different Tendency?
Gretchen: Well, you’re ask-, I mean, that’s a great question. So each of the Tendencies, like, if you think of the Tendencies, like, in the Four Tendencies book, there’s a big picture at the front that I think is helpful.
If you think of the Tendencies as, like, four circles in a diamond that are overlapping, like, a four circle Venn diagram of overlapping, you realize each of the Tendencies overlaps with, with two other Tendencies.
So, like, if you’re an obliger, you overlap with upholder because obligers and upholders both readily meet outer expectations. So there’s a deep affinity between obligers and upholders.
And then obligers also overlap with rebels because they both resist inner expectations. And so there’s a deep affinity between obligers and rebels. And so you can be an obliger who tips to rebel, or you can be an obliger who tips to upholder and that’s going to affect, uh, how your, how your Tendency comes out. So you’re still an obliger, but like you say, there’s, kind of, this flavor of upholder.
And that’s very, that’s what my sister is. If anybody listening listens to the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast, my sister’s an obliger who tips to upholder. And obligers who tip to upholders, they are better at being able to draw boundaries. They’re better able to, uh, they don’t suffer as much obliger rebellion, typically, they don’t which is a phenomenon we can talk about. Uh, they, they are more in, kind of, in the zone of upholder. So that makes perfect sense to me that somebody would feel like, oh, I feel like I’ve got, like, an upholder side to me yet. Yeah, you probably just tip that way.
Helen: Yeah, it’s interesting hearing, uh, you list some of the ways that obligers can hold themselves accountable. I think, for me, with my upholder streak, I am able to hold myself accountable to my calendar…
Gretchen: Yes!
Helen: …or to my blog…
Gretchen: Yes!
Helen: …because those are things that I’ve, I’ve said that I’m going to do and that’s, you know, just a touch of accountability and that’s all like…
Gretchen: Yes!
Helen: …you know, I don’t need somebody, like, tapping me on the shoulder being like, are you gonna do that thing?
Gretchen: Well, and that’s, that’s a really good point, which is that there’s this huge variety among obligers about wha,t kind of, uh, accountability they’re sensitive to and how much they need. So some obligers, like you, do feel accountable to a calendar, or they might feel accountable to an auto reminder from an app, you know. Whereas other obligers are, like, they have to get in trouble from an actual person, or it doesn’t matter.
Some obligers are very sensitive to things like spending money. Like, if they take money to take a class, they’re, and the class is like, okay, you have to finish a project every week. They’re going to be like, I’m not going to waste the money. Like, I have to do it. But then other obligers are, kind of, like, well, I paid my money. Like, now it’s just, the, the, the, the teacher gets the same money whether I show up or not. They feel, kind of, free to blow it off.
And so, again, it’s like, what, so you sound like someone who’s very, very sensitive to, like, even the lightest touch of accountability. And so that gives you that, kind of, upholder look. Whereas some obligers, especially obligers who tip to rebel, like, it’s hard to make them feel, you know, you, it needs to be a pretty big, um, accountability measure.
Caroline: Yeah, I think I definitely lean towards rebel, so it’s interesting because Helen and I think, feel that in our working relationship where she’s a little bit more of an upholder, and I’m a little bit more of a rebel, so we do, sort of, differ in that way. But I would love to hear you elaborate a little bit more on obliger rebellion.
Gretchen: Yeah. So, I mean, you can tell me if you’ve experienced this, either of you. Um, so obliger rebellion is a very common pattern among obligers where an obliger will meet, meet, meet, meet expectations, and then, or an expectation, and then suddenly it’s like they snap, and they’re like, I’ve had it. This I will not do.
And sometimes it’s small and, kind of, funny. Like, I’m not going to answer your emails for a week. And sometimes it’s really big. Like, I’m going to get a divorce. I’m going to quit this job and go work for a competitor. I’m going to end a 20 year friendship because you’re dead to me. It’s over. I’ve had it.
And what I didn’t understand for a long time is that obliger rebellion is really protective. It’s meant to safe-, safeguard the obliger from being exploited or taken advantage of or feeling unheard or neglected or where expectations are just too burdensome. So it’s supposed to kind of, like, eject you from a situation that you can’t stand anymore.
So it’s supposed to protect you, but it can be very destructive, and it’s, kind of, out of control, and obligers will say, like, I feel like I’m acting out of character. I feel like a volcano exploding. I feel like a lid blowing off a pot. Like, it’s a very, kind of, uncontrolled out of nowhere feeling. And it’s often, can have reputational risks because it does come out of nowhere, and it can seem disproportionate to other people because they don’t understand why this deep anger and resentment has been building.
Like, they’re thinking like, well, if you didn’t want to serve on a committee, why did you volunteer? Like, why did you say you would? If you didn’t want to do it, why did you say you do it? And they don’t understand, like, the resentment that’s building.
It can just feel like something that is just out of the person’s, uh, ability to, kind of, moderate it or, or direct it or, like, it’s not, like you’re, you’re starting to push back. It’s, like, you’re just overturning the table. Um, and, uh, and it is when they, when obligers feel, kind of, exploited or neglected or, or unheard. Um, and so obliger rebellion is meant to end that. Um, have you ever experienced obliger rebellion?
Caroline: I think not on such a dramatic level…
Gretchen: Maybe smaller?
Caroline: …but I’ve definitely experienced, you know, where at a certain point, I’m like, I’ve had enough. I’m just not going to answer this email that, sort of, on a smaller, on a smaller scale, for sure. Yeah. I definitely think I have a rebel streak in me.
Helen: Sometimes Caroline will work seven days a week, and then all of a sudden be like, I’m taking the day off! As opposed to just taking a regular weekend.
Gretchen: Right. Well, It’s interesting because, on the one hand, it’s good because it’s, like, it is, like, saving you from, like, deep burnout. But, on the other hand, like, if you’re dealing with someone who’s an upholder like me, I’m like, why didn’t you plan this in advance? Like, why are you springing this on me now? If you wanted to take a day off, like, why is it, like, it just, it’s, it’s, it can be hard to deal with and can, it can have, like, negative consequences.
So the thing to do is to try not to get to the place of deep burnout and resentment, where somebody feels like, okay, I’ve had it. And I’m, like, I’m just taking a personal day, like, come what may. Or I’m quitting this job because you, you people. I’m sick of you people. It’s, like, either an obliger, cause a lot of times obligers are super relieved to find out this is, like, a common pattern. They thought it was, like, their own private problem. And they didn’t understand this is, like, very common, very widespread. There’s a good reason for it. And there’s, there’s things that you can do to, um, to circumvent it.
And what you want to do, or if you’re dealing with an obliger, is you want to make sure they don’t get to that place of deep burnout and resentment. Um, now two obligers working together, you might really, kind of, safeguard for each other cause you’d be very attuned to the pressure about outer expectations.
But I think other Tendencies, and sometimes obligers themselves, they do have a tendency to exploit and take advantage of obligers. They absolutely do. That’s not, obligers don’t think they do, and they do. Um, and they need to remind themselves, like, watch out for this. Look out for situations where one person’s working too hard or one person hasn’t had a break or one person is shouldering a disproportionate burden and others aren’t helping or participating.
My favorite example of this, and it just drives me crazy, I’m obsessed with office signage, especially kitchen signage. Like, anytime I go to an office, I look at the office sign, and what’s clear to me is that nobody puts their dishes in the dishwasher except the obligers. The obligers are furious about this. And they, they will tend to post more and more and more aggressive and snarky signs, which everybody else, for very good reasons in their, from their own perspectives, ignores this.
And my answer is it should be somebody’s job in an office to load the dishwasher. That should be a job. You should have it in your job description. You should get paid for it. And that should just be part of your workday because the idea that people are just going to volunteer and do it, it doesn’t happen fairly. And it just causes a lot of resentment. That’s my two cents about obligers and, uh, office dishes, the mugs, you know, the mugs, the mugs, the mugs, like, let’s get over it.
Helen: It’s, like, a perfect snapshot of all the Tendencies.
Gretchen: Oh yeah. Well, so here’s the thing. Like, to an upholder, an upholder thinks I have my job, and my job does not include loading the dishwasher. Maybe I’ll do my mug, but I’m not going to do your mug because I take care of me. You take care of you. I’ll follow the rules, but I’m not going to go beyond the rules because I got my own work to do. I got my own things, too.
Questioners are like, it’s not efficient for me to be spending my time. I should use my time to do sales. That’s best for everyone. That’s how I make my contribution. Like, I’m not going to load the dishwasher. Maybe they also would load their thing, but I don’t, you know, they’d be like, it’s not an efficient use of my time.
Rebels’ like, I’m going to do what I want to do. Maybe they have a value and their identity is that they’re super considerate, so they do it. Maybe their identity is like, yeah, I don’t, like, that’s just not something that I think is worth my time. Like, life’s too short to sit around loading other people’s mugs into a dishwasher, so I’m not going to do it.
But the obliger feels the pressure to do it. They see the dirty dishes, or they see the sign, and they’re like, well, if other people aren’t going to do it, I have to do it. So, as an upholder, I don’t think that. I think I got my work to do. That isn’t my job.But to obligers, that looks really cold. And they’re like, who are these barbarians that I work with who cannot do the decent thing and put their own mug in the dishwasher? And they feel, like, incredibly put upon and, like, they’re surrounded by people who are extremely inconsiderate.
So, you see how from everybody’s perspective, it makes perfect sense. What they think and why they act doesn’t seem inappropriate or inconsiderate, it just seems like good sense. But it falls on the obliger. They’re the ones who suffer for that cause everybody else is like, okay, maybe I’ll do my own mug. Maybe I won’t. Maybe I will. But I feel, I don’t feel like I need to load the dishwasher for everyone. Not no, of course, somebody could email me. I have an exception cause I’m a questioner. But you know, for this reason I did. Yes. But I’m just saying, yes, in the main, this is, this is the general, the general observation that I have made about, and I have, like, surprisingly studied this more than is really logical. I’m obsessed with it. I spent a lot of time talking to people about their frustrations around coffee mugs.
Helen: I mean, it’s so interesting on your podcast because you and Liz get to talk to people all the time, or hear from your listeners all the time, about their various deviations from the four Tendencies. And you always, kind of, bring them back and be like, no, you know, because of this, you, you actually are more in this camp, and it always makes sense in the end, but of course, There are lots of different personalities out there, and people aren’t going to be one specific label all the time.
So we wanted to ask you about the collection of materials for projects because it made us think of your “overbuying/underbuying” theory. Can you tell our listeners about that?
Gretchen: Yes, well, and I bet it’s related to finishers and openers, too. So, uh, underbuyers and overbuyers, this is, like, how you approach buying. So overbuyers are people who, they will, their tendency is to buy. They love to prepare, uh, they’ll think of everything they could possibly need. They’ll often get things in multiple colors, multiple sizes. They’ll buy gifts for people without knowing who the recipient is like, oh, this would make a great gift.
They tend to, things like, um, lay in a lot of supplies or like, a friend of mine, who is, she is the original under-, overbuyer. Um, because she, I studied her, her husband is an underbuyer. And I, and I, just thinking about the two of them and their approaches to the world, I’m like, this is a whole category of human nature.
Like, she, her baby was born, and she was such an overbuyer that she bought, like, all this baby’s winter clothing, but then the baby would, by the time winter actually came, the baby was too big. And so she had this whole set of clothing that was never used which she gave to a friend, but still it’s, like, she spent all this time and energy buying all this stuff that she never even really needed cause she’s an overbuyer.
Underbuyers don’t like to buy. Um, and it’s, kind of, related to frugality, but it’s almost just, like, about not wanting to buy. Like, I will do almost anything to avoid making a purchase. And if I do purchase, I often purchase less than would be sensible. It’s like, go ahead and buy three tubes of toothpaste.
Like, you know, you’re going to use the toothpaste, but I’m like, oh, I just want to get one right now. And they will often only buy things at the very last minute which is super inconvenient. Cause it’s, like, if you’re trying to buy, like, ski pants for your kid in New York City and you wait until December. Okay, they don’t have ski pants, you know, just lying around because it’s, like, the seasons have changed or, or, like, they often don’t like to use, um, highly specific products.
And when I was writing the book Better Than Before, when I talk about the overbuyer/underbuyer, one of my examples was Kleenex, and my editor was like, that’s insane. Like, who doesn’t use Kleenex? And I’m like, well really, you can just blow your nose on toilet paper, so I don’t know why you need a whole separate product for that. And she’s like, okay, you’re crazy. I’m like, I’m an under buyer. Cause I’m like, you don’t need a raincoat, just wear a coat or, you know, you’ve got an umbrella. Uh, you don’t need a s-, you know, this kind of thing. Um, specialized creams, you know, like leg cream, hand cream, body cream, face cream. I’m like, creams cream. Just use cream. Um, so that’s under-, so that’s underbuyers.
But then another thing that comes up with supplies is finishers and openers. So, and I also talk about this in Better Than Before, so finish-, finishers love to finish. They like to finish projects. And so sometimes they’re too, they don’t like to take risks or start things if they don’t know that they can finish them because they’re very concerned about finishing. And sometimes they, kind of, rush toward the end because they’re so excited about getting something done.
Openers love to open. So these are the people that have 15 half finished projects. Like, they love starting, but they have trouble finishing. Um, and so it’s like, you have seven half finished needle pointed pillows, but you don’t have one pillow that’s actually on the chair. Openers can, kind of, lose interest before they actually finish, which in creativity can be fun, but it can also be frustrating because then you never have the, like, the actual finished product that it’s, sort of, like, ready to launch as they say.
Caroline: Yeah. That’s so funny. I mean, we were laughing when you were talking about Kleenex because I’m blowing my nose on toilet paper.
Gretchen: There you go! There you go!
Caroline: Helen doesn’t have Kleenex in her house.
Helen: There’s always a very limited supply of Kleenex here.
Gretchen: Who needs it?
Caroline: You’re talking about overbuying/underbuying and, uh, finishers and openers. Do you think that those particular, you know, leanings are indicative of a particular Tendency? Do you think certain Tendencies are overbuyers or underbuyers? That sort of thing?
Gretchen: You know, that is a really fascinating question. Since I’m an upholder and an underbuyer, I feel like those are associated because it has to do with control. Um, but I could see that, I think that’s not true. I could see that an upholder could just as easily be an overbuyer cause that’s another form of, like, execution and getting things done and the satisfaction of crossing things off the list.
So I think maybe these are just, um, or like, are upholders more likely to be finishers because they like the execution? That could be, I don’t know. You know, I would love to have, like, gigantic data sets where I could see if these things correlate. But as you said earlier, like, people, there’s so many components to a person’s personality. The Tendency is just one narrow slice, how you respond to expectations, but things like creativity and extroversion and curiosity and, you know, all these things combine, your, what your ideals are all combine in different ways. So I’m not, I’m not sure that they correlate, they might, but I don’t know that they do.
Helen: I think it’s really cool to think about openers and finishers, in particular with sewing projects, cause I know that a lot of our listeners probably have a big pile of…
Gretchen: Yes!
Helen: …as we call them our works in progress.
Gretchen: Yeah.
Helen: That’s okay. You know, maybe we should be a little more accepting of that fact and just be okay with that, or be okay with the fact that you don’t like to buy fabric until you’re perfectly ready or be okay with the fact that you have a wall of fabric in your apartment and just accept those things about ourselves.
Gretchen: Well, one of the things, I wrote a book called Happier at Home, which is, you know, spoiler alert, all about how to be happier at home. And one of the things I talked about was abandoning a project because sometimes, especially I think for openers, it’s like, it becomes burdensome to see all these open projects because you feel guilty, and yet, you don’t, you’ve, kind of, lost interest or maybe it’s harder than you thought, or it’s not as much fun as you thought or it’s not turning out the way you envisioned.
And so, but just seeing it, kind of, gives you that feeling like, oh, should I finish it? Like, it gets, you know? And so sometimes the best way to advance is to just say like, you know what, I’m not going to use it. Like, I bought all that yarn, that color, but it’s actually, I’m going to give it away to somebody else because I’ve decided I don’t really want to do that project after all. Or I’ve got this thing half finished.
Uh, you know, sometimes the, the best way to get something accomplished is just to decide, I’m not going to finish it. And then you get it off your shelves and off your conscience because I think half finished, well, first of all, they take up space, and then also they, kind of, take up mental room because there’s always that question of like, when am I going to get around to it?
And sometimes you do want to get around to it. But sometimes, if you’re honest with yourself, you’re like, okay, now I don’t foresee in the next 40 years, that’s going to be one of my top 10 projects. So it’s just never going to get done, you know?
Helen: Yeah, and I feel like sometimes those unused materials or those works in progress can also be a reflection of that expectation that you set for yourself that you haven’t met…
Gretchen: Yes!
Helen: …and that adds to the guilt, right?
Gretchen: Yeah, but I think another thing with creativity, and this is, I think this is always a tension, which is having a lot of material to us-, at your disposal can create, can generate creativity and you can see juxtapositions and it’s exciting, but there’s also the fun of the f-, the, the, the hunt and the getting, and that sometimes that can become overwhelming, and then you end up with so much stuff.
I mean, I have this, even with, like, note-taking. Um, you have so much stuff that you feel overwhelmed by it, and then it’s almost, like, dampens your creativity because you feel, sort of, like, swamped or strangled by everything, and yet it’s so fun to gather it. I think you, kind of, have to be disciplined with yourself to say, do I have so much material that, at this point, I’m not going to let myself get any more new material until I absorb the material that I already have, or at least make decisions about it.
Cause I think it’s, it’s easy to get swept away with the fun of the purchase, or the fun of, like, like, I know a lot of people, and writers use, um, note-taking, uh, you know, like on the computer or whatever, so that they can easily, uh, copy lots of texts. I always force myself to re-type things because I know that if I didn’t have to, if I didn’t have the discipline and the time and the energy that it takes to re-type, I would just, I would just save everything, and then I would be, I would just be overwhelmed with material, and it would be horrible. But since I have to re-type it, I have to be extremely, extremely disciplined about what I take in. And so it’s, sort of, like, you’re only going to let yourself buy, buy fabric once a month or, you know, like, try to ration it for yourself. Cause sometimes it’s so fun to get the stuff, but then you have to use the stuff.
Helen: Oh, Gretchen you are hitting on a…
Gretchen: Oh!
Helen: …very hotly discussed topic in our community. Lots of people love to buy the fabric, but don’t necessarily follow through, so, no it’s interesting to hear about it through the lens of the Tendencies.
Gretchen: Well, there’s interesting things about how to manage the love of buying that people have told me which is fascinating. Like, one thing somebody does is, and apparently this is very widespread, this is something that, uh, e-commerce people talk about as, like, a thing, they think it’s, like, a failed transaction.
But it turns out that for a lot of people this is what they want, is you go through and you pick things out online and put it in your basket, and then you just abandon your basket. So you have the fun of, like, these, this is what I would pick. This is what I would choose to, sort of, the curation, but then you just end up not buying it.
Or if you’re in a real store, um, don’t like, don’t take a basket or a, or a, um, or a cart. Force yourself to hold things. Cause you will hold much less than you could put in a cart, um, and or, make a point that I’m going to walk around the store and I’m going to look, but I’m not going to take anything from the shelf. I’m going to have to go back for it. And a lot of times, if you have to go back or something, it’s sort of that impulsivity and the, kind of, the deliciousness of just seeing it right in front of you. By the time you’ve, like, walked around, you’re like, you know what, I really don’t have a vision for how I would use that, so why didn’t I think about that.
Um, so sometimes just breaking down that, that instant gratification of, like, it’s just so beautiful, you just want it. Um, if you can delay that a lot of times, um, then you, you sort of think better of it. Cause you, and always remind yourself, you can go back. I always say you can store it in the store. You don’t have to store it in your house. Most things you could buy it next month, if you decide next month that you want it. You can store it in the store instead of storing in your house cause there is just something fun about buying it, just picking it out and taking it home, like…
Helen: Yeah.
Gretchen: …it’s interesting to me why that is so satisfying.
Helen: Well, we have this saying here on the show where we say there’s always more fabric.
Gretchen: Yes! It’s really true, though, you know? Um, and it’s all, there’s so much beautiful things that, yeah, no. Or I think with, like, Pinterest and Instagram, too. Sometimes people feel like it’s a way to, kind of, own something or to, a way to possess it and present it without owning it. You know, I’ve heard of people doing that. Like, I don’t need to buy it because I can, I can just, sort of, capture it and remind myself of it so that if I want to go back, I have a record. Cause sometimes people are like, ooh, I might never see this again. Or I might forget. It’s like, okay, well, I have a record of it.
Helen: So can we talk about fear for a little bit? So I think our listeners, uh, really struggle with fear and taking on new challenges with sewing, like fear of the unknown or fear of failing or fear of ruining that beautiful fabric that they’ve had in their stash forever.
Gretchen: Yeah.
Helen: So we’d love to go through the Tendencies and just talk a bit about how they face and overcome fear.
Gretchen: Yeah. You know, I’m not sure it’s tied to the Tendencies so much. I think it’s more of, like, a different aspect of your personality that then would interact with your Tendency. Um, but we can talk about how each one might deal with that. And maybe the, maybe the first one to talk about is obliger. Cause that’s both of your Tendencies, and it’s the biggest Tendency in the world.
But one of the things I think is really helpful, and I always remind myself of this, is to enjoy the fun of failure and to really remind yourself that if you aren’t failing, you’re not trying hard enough. You’re not pushing yourself. And it’s no fun to do creative things if you’re just, it’s like using a coloring book for the rest of your life is fun to a certain degree, but, at a certain point, you’re like, well, maybe I’d like to do something different. And so to say, like failing is part of this, part of the fun is part of trying.
I was just listening to a podcast where they were talking about a failure resume, that you should make a resume of all your failures. And you could do that with your sewing projects, too. You could be like, oh, this is the thing where I made this mistake. And a lot of times, too, I think it’s helpful to remember that’s how you learn. Making a mistake is often the best way to learn. I misspelled parallel in a sixth grade term paper, and I assure you, I am, I never have misspelled parallel, uh, to this day. Um, I bet I would sometimes get it wrong had I not gotten it so spectacularly wrong in sixth grade.
Helen: I love that that’s the one thing that you remember.
Gretchen: Yeah, I mean, isn’t it funny? Or my father spelled Europe, capitally, little e-U-R-O-P-E when he was young and he’s, like, he never forgot it, you know? So sometimes it, it is, it is disappointing, and you do feel like you’re wasting things or you’re, you’ve kind of, sullied something, or you’ve let yourself down, but you have to say, well, this is part of learning. This is part of, like, doing better. Um, it’s inevitable. No, one’s perfect. Pat-, you know, if you’re doing something new and challenging, and that’s a really important part of happiness is this atmosphere of growth.
Like, we’re happier when we’re growing, when we’re learning new things or teaching new things or making the world better. And so it’s very satisfying to learn how to do something new, but often that comes with frustration and anger and feeling like a loser and being mad at yourself for making, screwing up. Um, so I think that’s just part of the process though.
Caroline: Yeah, you’re totally right. And I think this, sort of, ties in a little bit with the comparison trap because social media is such a huge part of our community. I think a lot of the time we’re comparing ourselves to other people. And one of the things that we love so much about the four Tendencies and knowing yourself better, that whole theme, is that it’s all about recognizing that our personalities are different and accepting ourselves for who we are, right?
But yeah, I think a lot of the time our listeners fall into the comparison trap on social media and feel, kind of, less productive or less skilled than their peers. So I’m curious if you have any tips for, sort of, avoiding comparing yourselves to others.
Gretchen: Well, one thing to remember is that the people who are truly not good at it are not anywhere near it cause they don’t even, they don’t even try. Like, they’re not even trying to sew or do a holiday decoration or whatever. Like, they’re not even in the game at all. So you’re already, just by the fact that you’re doing it, you’re, like, already at the tippy top.
Um, but it’s interesting. Social comparison is something that’s, it’s like, it’s, it’s, kind of, a aspect of personality that some people have more of than others. And I think if you know that you are subject to social comparison, you might want to be very careful in how much you do expose yourself to social media because it is a social comparison machine, but it’s not inherent in the technology, it’s in you. So technology is a great servant, but a bad master.
And so if you feel like it’s doing, it’s not useful for you, or it’s not helpful for you, you, you want to take control of it. Maybe don’t check it as often or, you know, limit your exposure to it, if you feel like it’s bringing you down. And I mean, there’s the classic line I think that comes from AA, which is, you know, don’t compare your insides to other people’s outsides.
And when you see this beautiful finished product, you don’t know, that could be the person’s 10th try. That could be, this, that person could have bought it and passed it off as their own. You know, you don’t, you don’t know. Um, the lighting is great. Like, they know about lighting. You don’t know about lighting yet. And so their thing looks amazing and it’s like, oh, it’s cause they have a better camera on their phone or whatever.
And, uh, yeah. And I think just to remember, it’s all about what do you want, what are you trying to achieve? Um, but it is hard when you, when you see all this stuff and, and, and also when you’re learning and trying, it’s very discouraging even the comparison to what’s in your brain. You know, you have this vision in your head and it’s like, your hands just can’t create it, and that’s very frustrating. So it’s not even, like, other people, it’s, like, your own idea because you have to be pretty good to be able to execute something, you know, in accordance with your own vision of what you want to create. And so I think sometimes that’s the comparison too, is, is to yourself.
But what I think, when people think about perfectionism, one thing to remember about perfectionism, it’s not about standards, it’s about anxiety. So the answer for perfectionism is not to lower your standards cause it doesn’t really matter what your standards are. Like, I’m a not-anxious person who’s very high standard, but I’m not a perfectionist because I don’t have very much anxiety. Um, but then if you’re very, but if you feel that, try to make yourself feel less anxious and more calm and remind yourself things like to enjoy the fun of failure and, um, you know, of learning and I love, uh, I love what I did, you know, and to try to take the anxiety out of it.
Helen: I love what you said earlier about being already at the tippy top…
Gretchen: Yes, you are!
Helen: …if you are doing something. I mean, that’s amazing. It’s a great way to think about it. Most people are not involved in what you’re doing. They’re not even at anywhere near your level even if you’ve sewn one seam…
Gretchen: They couldn’t, they couldn’t sew one button, you know what I mean? And it’s like, you’re like a magician to them if you come in there and you do something. My sister-in-law would sew her daughter’s clothes. And I was like, this is amazing. How is that possible? She’s like, it’s really not that hard. And I was like, well, really? Cause you know, so yeah, you are a way in advance of most people.
Helen: Mhm, it makes me think, too, about how, uh, sewers have this habit of pointing out all of the mistakes on their garments when they’re showing them off like, oh, I made this shirt, but you know, this seam is wonky, and this didn’t turn out quite the right way, and this button is weird. And I feel like we need to stop doing that because it’s just so amazing that you completed it to begin with. And non sewing people are like, what are you talking about?
Gretchen: But also I think that’s part of the beauty of it because in an era, in, in a time of mass production where everything is exactly alike, it’s the things that are slightly imperfect that make you appreciate it so much more.
Like, I remember once I was at a ballet, which I never go to the ballet, but, like, a friend took me, so I was at the ballet. It was this beautiful performance in New York City. And like, there was a moment where the ballerina, kind of, slipped, and you could feel that the audience saw it, but what was interesting to me was that that made the rest of the performance look so much more beautiful because it reminded you that she’s not just an automaton executing this, like, in CG, this is an actual person actually performing at this level. And so it was like, I was like the imperfection made it more perfect.
And so I think sometimes it’s, like, the imperfection of a, something that has been sewn is what makes you realize, like, somebody actually sat down and did this. And that seems so much more interesting. And so, and I think what, I always am trying to find, like, the actual citation for this, but what I heard was that the Amish would always include a deliberate mistake because they believed that man should not aspire to the perfection of God.
And now I don’t know if that’s actually true. I keep trying to find a citation for it, but I think it’s a beautiful idea, which is that, make a deliberate mistake, and then you don’t have to worry about it being perfect. Um, because this is like, okay, I wanted it to have a mistake. That’s what I meant all along.
Helen: I’ve also heard, and I don’t know where this comes from, but that the undoing of a mistake, like, the going back and fixing of a mistake is like an unraveling of your soul…
Gretchen: Ah.
Helen: …which is really intense, but that’s why you have to leave them because otherwise…
Gretchen: Ohh!
Helen: …you’re going back, and, like, basically, you know, airbrushing your life, right? You gotta let it be.
Gretchen: And also, I think if you want to keep moving forward, you can’t, like, fuss too much. Like, I remember when I started blogging, I started blogging in 2006. And I had never been a journalist of any kind, and I had never really been a writer. Um, and one of the things I had to really discipline myself to do was not to go back and edit previous entries because I realized after I’d been doing it for, like, six months, I could spend my whole life editing and perfecting entries from months ago.
And that I had to just see this as something where the point of it was just to constantly be moving forward and to constantly be creating something new. And that if I, if I was like, oh, I wish I’d said this or I could have cited this study or I think I, kind of, misuse this vocabulary word, or like, somebody, people would point out typos, like, two years later. I’m like, life is too short for me to go back and fix a typo from two years ago because you know, you just have to say, you know, if you want to keep doing new things, you can’t tinker, tinker, tinker, tinker.
Helen: Yeah, totally. And speaking of moving forward, we wanted to ask you about analysis paralysis. We know that questioners, kind of, struggle with this.
Gretchen: Yes. Um, so analysis is when, um, because questioners love information and they love reasons and justifications. Um, they like to know why, and they, they can sometimes fall into a trap of just wanting more and more and more reasons and justifications. And in some contexts, this can be good, if it doesn’t get out of control. But sometimes it can mean that questioners can’t reach a decision in a, in a timely way, or they act as a bottleneck that may frustrate, kind of, a system.
And, um, this is because you know, a lot of times we, we can’t wait for perfect information, or there’s so much information you couldn’t possibly absorb it all and make it like, like what kind of camera should I buy? That could take you the rest of your life cause by the time you’d investigated every option, there’d be a whole new bunch of options and a whole bunch of new considerations.
So with analysis paralysis, or if you’re dealing with someone with analysis paralysis, you want to appeal to efficiency in some way, as like, it’s not efficient for you to keep doing this. For instance, you could have deadline. Like, we need to have an answer by Friday, give us your best answer by Friday. Or like, limits. We’re going to interview five people for this job, but not 10 people for this job. Or a trusted authority. Okay, I want to buy this piece of equipment. I’m going to go to the store where I know the people. They really know their equipment. I can be very guided by their judgment. I don’t need to go to a hundred stores. I don’t need to get to 100 websites because I’m going to talk to these people. These people really know. If they tell me, oh yeah, you should buy this one that I can be, I can be, I can trust their, I can trust their judgment.
And it’s funny about analysis paralysis. Many questioners have said to me, they more likely to have it with little things than big things. So it’s more like your calendar planner system than it is what is your career. Or it’s going to be like, where do you go on your summer vacation? Not who should you marry? Um, so it can be these little things that just become, you know, real roadblocks, um, if you let them spiral out of control.
Helen: Yeah. It’s good advice to go to, like, trusted sources or to have your go-to places. Like, I’m thinking in relation to sewing, you know, having those pattern companies that you really trust or, or knowing those other people in the community who you, you like their style, and you can see what fabrics they used for a certain project, and that gives you the information you need to sort of move forward and get sewing,
Gretchen: I’m a huge fan of, like, find somebody who, you know does the research and makes good decisions, and then just free ride off of all of their efforts. I do this constantly. I have, like, 10 people in my life, I’m like, yeah, yeah, if it’s good enough for you, it’s good enough for me. Oh, your, uh, kid went to that summer camp? My kid’s going to that summer camp, like, you know? Yeah. Because some people just, they become, kind of, the experts on things, and then we can, we can take advantage of that.
Helen: I love that.
Caroline: So Gretchen, we’re thinking we want to switch gears a little bit and talk about color because we know you are working on a book all about colors. Is that right?
Gretchen: Yes, a little book called My Color Pilgrimage, all about color.
Caroline: Yes, that is awesome. Yeah, so as lovers of fashion and fabric, our listeners are pretty obsessed with color. Um, so we wanted to know first off, what is it about color that you find so interesting?
Gretchen: You know, the thing about color, well, first of all, I’m very, I think probably unlike a lot of your listeners, I’m not visual. And so I find it hard, I’m so texty that it’s I try, I’m always trying ways to engage more deeply in the physical world. And so looking at color is a way to get me to get out of my dreamy, absent-minded space and really look and see the beauty of the world. So just, like, really focusing in on something even like a brick wall or leaves in Central Park or the sky, the sun, you know, the color of the sky, so that got me into color.
And then I also love that color is, like, this mysterious thing. It’s, like, where is it? Like, if you close your eyes, does all color go out of the world? If you turn your back on something, does it lose its color? Um, uh, like, people, like, it’s just this, kind of, mysterious thing. We think there were, there were seven colors in the rainbow. Then there were, now there’s six, you know, you could divide it any way you want.
The way we have pink and red in English. Um, other other countries have that for, like, blue, and they have different words for light blue and dark blue. And I’m like, how is that possible? How could you have a different word for it? But pink and red makes perfect sense for me. How can you have a, you could have a dark white that’s darker than a light yellow, but yellow is darker than white. How is that possible?
There’s all these sort of weird paradoxes, like, interesting things about animals and history. People have died for color. Uh, they’ve been killed by color. So this book is, like, basically the subtitle is things that I have found interesting about. And that, it’s like, there’s nothing beyond, it’s just like, that is a crazy fact about color. So I’ve been having so much fun working on that.
Helen: Oh, I can only imagine.
Gretchen: One of the interesting, one of the interesting things about color is that it doesn’t have any meaning, at least to my mind, other than what we give it culturally. So the idea that some colors are warm and some colors are cold, that has, that’s very recent how our associations, there’s nothing about those colors.
And in fact, blue is a hotter color than, than yellow or red. If you think about it, blue flame. And blue and, uh, pink for male and female that recently reversed. It used to be that blue was a girl’s color and pink and red were boys’ colors. They were more marshal, and cause w-, w-, it was, like, light red for boys cause it was, like, red was a masculine color. So, so all of these ideas that they have these, like, permanent meanings, they have the meanings that we associate with them, but they don’t have any inherent meaning, sort of, fascinating.
Caroline: That is really fascinating. And I’ve heard you talk on your podcast about the idea of having a signature color.
Gretchen: Yes! Love that!
Caroline: Um, and we’ve also, sort of, seen in the community, people talking about power colors, wearing a specific color and how that can, sort of, influence your interactions with other people or just the way that you sort of take on the day. So I’d love to get your take on that.
Gretchen: Yeah. So yeah. Signature colors, the idea that you just pick a color that somehow is your color. Like, you say, it can be like your pump-up color, like, your lucky color, or it could be, like, your default color.
Like, a friend of mine has fuchsia, and it’s just, like, anytime she has to pick something, she picks fuchsia. So if it’s her workout outfit, if it’s her cell phone case, if it’s her bag, you know, she just always picks fuchsia, and it kind of, for her, it’s more, like, about decision fatigue and everything, kind of, being identifiable as hers.
Um, some people, they don’t even have a color, but it’s a pattern. Like, it might be stripes or polka dots or like, or a fabric like, uh, or like a, a texture like denim or velvet, um, or leather. It’s just this idea that you pick out the thing that somehow speaks to you the most strongly. And then you surround yourself with that as a way to, kind of, project your identity into the world, or make decisions that you feel like somehow reflect you.
And what’s funny is how many people say they didn’t know that they had a signature color, and then they looked around and they’re like, oh my gosh, I totally have a signature color cause I realized everything is celadon green that I can possibly have in celadon green. Somebody picked, like, sent me a picture of her dishwasher. And she’s like, I had no idea that this was my signature color, but there it is. Um, and so, uh, and it’s just fun.
Here’s another way to use color. This, I, I came up with this as part of my color pilgrimage is, I think a lot of people want, like, gratitude prompts, you know, like, writing in a gratitude journal. I can’t stand a gratitude journal, so that’s never worked for me.
But, um, you could pick a color in the world or, like, a color of a car and say every time I see a red car, I’m going to think of my sweetheart. Or, every time I see school bus yellow, no matter where it is in the world, I’m going to think of how much I love my children. Or, every time I see this one blue that reminds me of my mother.
And that just, kind of, like, gives you that happy feeling as you go through your day using color as a cue, just the way you might have gratitude before a meal, you can use color as a cue. And I think that seems like it would be really fun. You’re always on the hunt for a color, you know?
Caroline: Yeah. I really love that idea because it, sort of, forces you to stop and notice things around you.
Gretchen: Yes! Yes, that’s it. That’s i. It’s right there. That is it. It’s, it’s how do you not, I mean, when people say they want to stay in the moment they want to be more present, I think that’s exactly what they’re talking about. It’s easy to talk about it. It’s harder to do it. I feel like you need a lot of, sort of, tips to how to make that happen.
Helen: So, Gretchen, to finish up our conversation, we wanted to touch on a theme from one of your episodes of Happier. And it’s this concept of remembering that this is supposed to be fun. I loved this episode. Do you remember this conversation with Liz?
Gretchen: Oh, sure. Yes. Well, and Elizabeth, the tagline, she and her writing partner who they, like, they’ve been writing partners forever in Hollywood. They have a sign that Sarah made for Elizabeth that says, “It’s a fun job, and I enjoy it.” Because they are constantly reminding themselves this is supposed to be fun. Um, yes. Yeah. So what struck you about that?
Helen: Just that I think as, uh, sewists we get really bogged down in all of the decisions that we make and all of the little finicky things that we have to do, and sometimes we get really frustrated. And we’re just not having a good time, even though this is our, you know, this is our personal hobby, this is the thing that we get to do just for ourselves. And the time we get to take to be creative and it has all of those positive things to it, but yet sometimes we can be totally negative.
Gretchen: Yes. Yeah, no, it’s good to remind yourself. This is supposed to be fun. And if something’s just consistently not fun it’s and it’s supposed to be fun. Cause there’s things that we do that are not supposed to be fun or they’re supposed to be fun, but we don’t really find them fun, but we’re going to do them anyway, like go on a tr-, you know, like, I don’t know, play touch football with your family.
You’re like, it’s supposed to be fun. I don’t personally find it fun, but I’m going to do it. Cause it’s like a fun afternoon with my family, you know, fun in quotation marks. But if it’s something that you’re just doing for yourself purely for fun, it’s like at a certain point you can be like, actually, this is when you abandon a project, you say, oh, this is not fun.
Helen: Yeah. That’s such a great tip. But I think of that every time I’m reading a book and I’m not enjoying it, I think of Gretchen, you, saying like, it’s fine. You don’t have to finish the book.
Gretchen: That was such a huge revelation to me. I was, like, such a full on grownup before I realized that my identity is, like, being a real reader, made me think I had to finish every book, and I read so much more now that I don’t finish every book. Cause I just stop reading something if I don’t like it. It’s, like, freedom.
Helen: Yeah. And stop sewing that project, if you don’t like it.
Gretchen: Yup.
Helen: It can apply there as well.
Gretchen: Yes.
Helen: And maybe we all need a little sticker on our sewing machines…
Gretchen: Yes.
Helen: …that says, yeah, this is fun. I’m enjoying it.
Gretchen: Yes. Yes. Yes. This is a fun project and I enjoy it, but then there’s always the fun at the end, too. Sometimes it’s not fun along the way, but you know that the feeling of satisfaction that you’re going to get at the end. So it’s not always fun at every minute along the way. But if you can’t even think, like, I’m not even going to be happy with this when it’s finished or I don’t, I can’t even, I can’t even, I don’t even care. Uh, then there’s no fun.
Caroline: So Gretchen, can you tell our listeners where they can find you online and learn more about all the amazing things that you do?
Gretchen: Oh yeah. I love to connect with readers and listeners and viewers. So I love when people get in touch with their own, like, observations and questions. I have a podcast with, that we were talking about called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. So that’s a weekly podcast where we talk about how to be happier, happier, healthier, more productive, more creative.
Um, I have a website, gretchenrubin.com, and that’s where you can get, like, I have a lot of blogs, you know, more than a decade of blog posts there about, kinda, my adventures in happiness. And there’s also a ton of resources there. So, um, and you can see links to all my books, The Happiness Project, Happier at Home, Better Than Before, which is all about habit change, and then The Four Tendencies, which is all about the, the personality profile we were talking about. So you can see links to them, and you can get those books anywhere, you know. You don’t have to go to my website for that.
On my website, there’s, like, discussion guides, if you’re talking about it in a book group. Or there’s, like, a habit, there’s a checklist for habit change. And there’s, like, nutshell guides for the Four Tendencies. There’s like a bunch of stuff, if you want to go a little bit deeper.
And then I’m on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, all under the name of Gretchen Rubin. And again, I love it. I love to hear from people. So, um, you know, read, listen, watch, I’ve got YouTube videos. You know, it’s all over the place.
Helen: Well, wonderful. Well, expect some sewing related questions.
Gretchen: Excellent! I cannot wait. I love it. I love that. I love hearing from people doing creative projects. It’s, like, it’s endlessly fascinating to hear how people approach it.
Helen: Well, Gretchen, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a true pleasure to chat with you and we know our listeners are going to love this episode.
Gretchen: Oh, well, thank you. I had so much fun talking to you.
Helen: Take care.
Caroline: Okay. Bye.
Helen: Bye.
Caroline: That’s it for this Love to Sew favorite, we’ll be back in September with our new season. And in the meantime, you can find me Caroline at blackbirdfabrics.com and Helen at helensclosetpatterns.com and our Love to Sew swag shop at lovetosewshop.com.
Helen: We’re recording in beautiful British Columbia, Canada, and you can get in touch with us and get links for everything we talked about in this episode at lovetosewpodcast.com. Just search for the episode title.
Caroline: And of course, if you want to join our Patreon fam, now is a great time to start. For just $5 U.S. per month, you’ll get access to our monthly bonus episode. And $10 U.S. per month will get you a 15% off discount code for Blackbird Fabrics, Helen’s Closet, and our Love to Sew swag shop, plus a bonus mini-sode. Go to patreon.com/lovetosew for more info.
Helen: Thanks to our amazing podcast team. And thank you all so much for listening. We’ll talk to you soon.
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Re: office dish washing
I love the idea that there should be an office dishwasher who is paid for the duty of washing dishes! Can we add that it shouldn’t go to the one woman in the office? It is so common for workplaces like this (as in, workplaces which have one woman only, which is a WHOLE OTHER THING…) for “The Girl” to be a secretary or office manager and therefore default to cleaning all the dishes. I think the rule should be:
1. One person washes dishes as part of their job description.
2. It cannot be the only woman in the office.
I don’t think I have ever written into a podcast before despite listening to dozens regularly, so Gretchen really knows how to hit a universal nerve with the subject of office dishes!
I love “Love to Sew” so much! It is my go-to whenever I need to feel lighter and productive. Thanks for all the hard work you put into it!
Fantastic show….Learned a lot.
Is there information online for how this model was developed? Eg, what statistical techniques were used? How was the initial data collected? What other personality research informed the development of the model?
Hi Louise! This article might shed some light on how Gretchen developed this framework and on a study that took place afterward. It’s worth mentioning that personality tests aren’t supported by scientific evidence. Some people find them helpful; we do! But they certainly aren’t the only way to look at yourself or the world.